Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour podcast with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy, so we bring you one hour’s worth of content in under 30 minutes, leaving you time for a true happy hour.

Lori: Hey, everyone. Today I had the great opportunity to speak with Kevin Schaefer, who’s the Director of Inclusive Practices for the El Dorado County School Office of Education in Sacramento, California. In this role, Kevin works to improve educational outcomes to students with disabilities through the provision of high quality leadership and support to the county and throughout the state. Today, Kevin and I spoke about exactly what his office does and barriers that he sees to students with disabilities being included in general education settings. More importantly we discuss how cultural and mindset change plays such an important role in creating those inclusive environments and what are some common threads that he sees between schools that are able to make these sweeping cultural changes. Kevin is a fun, exciting speaker, I am also pleased to tell you that he’ll be joining us for our virtual conference coming up in November so be sure to join us where he’ll be discussing how to create those cultural changes in schools and supporting policies as well. So now on to the show.

Well, hello Kevin and welcome to happy hour.

Kevin: Well, hello Lori. Thank you very much for having me 

Lori: Yeah, well, it’s early here. So for happy happy hour. I am sipping on a coffee How about you?

Kevin: Well, um, I have an energy drink to keep me going I’m an early riser. So I gotta keep going 

Lori: Nice nice. Yes. I’m an early riser as well and I Will not share how many cups of coffee I’ve had except that my husband came in this morning and cut me off. He said no more no more for you. That’s where we’re at…

Kevin: I’m in that between coffee and energy drinks and then Eventually moving into a glass of cabernet this evening. 

Lori: There you go Yeah, I think people in our field that tends to be the kind of trajectory of our day, right?Yeah. Coffee, energy drink, water, wine.

Kevin: There you go.

Lori: The works. So as I described in your intro, you are a very busy man.

Kevin: I am.

Lori: Yeah. So tell us about your personal journey that brought you to this point in your career. And then we’ll talk about SIP and all the interesting things that you’re doing.

Kevin: Well, interestingly, Lori, my journey to this role actually started when I was about five years old. In kindergarten through third grade, I was actually in a pullout program for students with expressive language and speech articulation. And I remember very vividly the, The path that would take me from my classroom at five years old, all the way through the hallways of my elementary school, up the stairs and then through the secondary classrooms, up to the really tiny speech room. And the interesting thing is that this is the aspect of my education that I remember most vividly, because I remember the color of the tiles on the wall and the wire in the glass of the offices I passed. And I even remember the names of the two students that were in the session for me.

And I reference this because I’m so connected to that feeling of being pulled out of a classroom and not knowing why, but knowing that there was something that had to be fixed or was wrong. And no one ever talked to me about it. And I think what we don’t talk about in our culture, in our society, tends to turn to shame. And you’re questioning, like, what is it? And even at five years old, that was 53 years ago this year. And I still so vividly have those memories of what it’s like to feel segregated and separate. And it wasn’t until probably 10 or 15 years ago that I looked at all of my report cards, including my speech report card, where all of those memories really started flooding back. But I think that’s the catalyst for me to be so passionate and involved with this work for so long.

Lori: Yeah. Oh, what a story. It just made me think of all the students that I’ve pulled out in my past to bring to my classroom. And I’m wondering if they remember the tile color and all of that. But you’re right. I think your point about shame, that’s so important. And one reason why in the past I’ve always really encouraged parents to share a diagnosis or a challenge with their kiddos. So they know why they’re receiving the supports they’re receiving.

Kevin: Well, and the flip side of that, too, is if we don’t talk about disability to our youth, they’ll never be self -advocates. They’ll never understand themselves and know what they need, and then to be able to ask for it. So this idea of let’s not talk about disability, it’s actually so harmful because it promotes that deficit -based thinking, and it’s really one of the main barriers for students being successful beyond the pre -school age 22 system.

Lori: So true. Yeah. Well, you talked about segregation and seclusion. So how do you define inclusion?

Kevin: Ooh, such a great, such a big question.

Lori: It is a big question.

Kevin: I think the distinction has to be made that inclusion isn’t about a place. I mean, it’s part of it, of course, but students could be in a place with their typically developing peers in general education and not experience meaningful inclusion. So when we talk about inclusion, it’s this integration of a student being in a place, but also experiencing a sense of belonging, relationship, and community. And the way the adults frame that environment is critical, but it’s that connection that students have, students with disabilities have with their peers that allow them to be educated and take risk and make mistakes in authentic environments. And when we segregate, the environment becomes artificial and then somehow we expect students then to integrate back into society when they graduate or leave the system, which is nonsensical to me.

Lori: Yeah. So true. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Lori: Yeah. That’s a great definition. And I think the belonging piece is the key word in that, not just being in the classroom with their peers, but truly belonging. And I love what you said about that ability to take risks and to fail and everything in being part of a classroom situation.

Kevin: And there’s really interesting research on how by segregating students into artificial environments or segregated environments that we’re denying them the dignity of risk. And this whole idea of we experience risk in authentic environments. And when we over-accommodate for students with disabilities, we over-protect students with disabilities. We don’t allow them to fail and make mistakes. And in some cases, like gently hurt themselves to learn a lesson to, you know, recalibrate or self -correct. And that’s where all the learning happens.

Lori: Yeah, yeah. OK, so the denying dignity of risk. Is that what you said? That’s powerful right there. So thank you. Have a new term. So you are part of an organization called SIP. I’m going to say that again, SIP. So what is it? What exactly is that?

Kevin: It is an incredible project that’s been in existence for about 10 years now. We are funded by the California Department of Education to work with county offices, SELPAs, districts in California to increase inclusive opportunities for students with disabilities. So our indicators, the data that we collect to show our impact, is really around indicators for least restrictive environment, as well as statewide student achievement on assessments. And we have a three -tiered model. The first tier is universal supports, where we have events, we have resources, our website. We thought partner with anyone who contacts us. We’re on social media, so it’s no cost access to all of our resources and we record and we archive all of our webinars and we add all of the resources through a padlet that anyone can access anyone in the world, not just California. 

And then tier two is actually working with districts within their own context, which allows us to understand the priorities and the initiatives at the leadership level to actually make that change organization wide to change the mindset around disability, inclusive policies, and inclusive practices through shared leadership. So, we’re working with about 100 organizations very specifically on their individualized needs to create and implement an inclusion plan.And then we also work with the State Department on their monitoring process to work with districts that are considered intensive level of support in those particular areas of inclusion, least restrictive environment and achievement.

Lori: Wow, so you just do a few things.

Kevin: We just do a few things. And I have to mention that the team that makes up SIPP is incredible. We’re funded through, like I said, the California Department of Ed through El Dorado County Office of Education and Riverside County Office of Education. And my co -director in Riverside, Dr. Kristin Brooks, we work together as one team with our coordinators, our program specialists and our program assistants to make the magic work.

Lori: Yeah, well, it does sound like magic. And the fact that you’re able to provide those resources at no cost is…is incredible. So we’ll put the links to those in our show notes for our listeners. I’m sure they’ll love it. So thank you. Thank you for all the work you’re doing. Well, you work with a lot of organizations on inclusion. So what do you see as the primary barriers to students with disabilities being included in general ed settings?

Kevin: Woo. Lori, where to start with that question? I think number one, we work within a framework around inclusive culture, inclusive policy, and inclusive practice. I think they all impact in a very deep way to perpetuate a system of segregation. And I think at the base of that, the foundation is mindset around disability.

And we have made it okay to segregate students on the basis of that singular identity of disability. And in doing so, we negate all other identities that make up that whole child and youth. We see it in special education as disproportionate representation of other marginalized populations. So we would never explicitly segregate a student based on race, but qualify them for special education. And…we’re okay, off they go, right?

So I think this idea around how adults in the system perceive disability is critical through that fixed mindset model where students are broken, they can’t perform, and therefore not my responsibility. I think it’s important also to note that we confuse special education with disability. And if we don’t understand the needs and the experience and honor the disability experience, then we are doing a disservice when we design special education supports and we have to separate the two because we could be an expert in special education and still not understand the needs and the experiences of the disability community and and and be able to identify the ableism in the system which in my mind is that that that cultural belief that that students with disabilities don’t deserve the same, can’t do the same, and therefore not my responsibility let’s move them across and it’s that mindset that that allows the system to continue.

Lori: right yeah agree wholeheartedly working in systems in the past where I’d be working with a student as my role as learning support teacher or whatever I was called at the time. And it would be, oh, your student is doing this, Lori. And it’s like, no, it’s not my student. This is our student. Every student in this classroom is our student. And by pinpointing that student as mine, you have just segregated them. Yeah. Great points.

Kevin: It works on the flip side too, where we work with special educators who also just want to love and hug their students on their caseload until they graduate and hope for the best. This bifurcation of the system, where in general ed, sometimes there’s a fear for making a mistake or not knowing what to do, therefore that’s your student.

And on the special ed end, you’re creating that barrier by segregate them because you’re the only one that can really do the job that savior complex.

Lori: Yeah So and they don’t learn to advocate for themselves or learn how they’re How yeah, uh -huh how to learn In their way their best way possible, creating that independence for them So How do we change those mindsets? How do we change the culture?

Kevin: Well, we our approach is to work with leadership teams because if the leadership team doesn’t have a really clear understanding and vision of how they define inclusion and to communicate that out to the organization and include? accountability Factors then it the system is going to do what the system is going to do so working with the leadership teams to understand the difficulty and the, I would say requirement, for them and their organization to change the mindset around disability and hold everyone accountable for that change.

One of the frameworks that we use is called the Results Pyramid. We expect new results on an old culture and that cycle will continue if we don’t address the experiences that we provide that change the belief system around disability that then influence the actions.

The IEP process is a great example. The ableist language that’s used, and not on purpose, but from, lack of understanding, if we have an IEP team that has had experiences that weren’t successful around inclusion, they will continue to segregate and feel as though students with disabilities have to be educated with other students with like disabilities and hope for the best. Changing the experiences that change the belief of that IEP team so that we’re now making decisions in more of an inclusive mindset, that’s where the actions take place. The experiences influence the beliefs that then impact the actions that will improve or get us to the desired results.

And I think that framework is really important to understand because districts will focus on the activity. We’re gonna do co -teaching, we’re gonna do UDL, we’re gonna do PBIS. If you don’t get to the root of the belief system, then that initiative isn’t going to be as successful as we need it to be.

Lori: Yeah. 

Kevin: That was a lot.

Lori: Well said. That was a lot of time. No, it was fantastic. I’m a slow processor, so I’m trying to take it all in. And I think that’s something I’m gonna have to refer back to later. But one thing that I really honed in on there is that Results Pyramid.Yeah. So yeah, that’s something I need to check out. I haven’t seen it before.

Kevin: It’s been super powerful.

Lori: Great. Yeah, thanks. And that’s in your resources as well?

Kevin: It is. And then actually, we’re working with an organization called Culture Partners and working with our entire team so that we’re able to effectively work with our districts to look at their current plans and then go deeper into that culture component that they may not have addressed previously.

Lori: Awesome. Well, thanks. 

Kevin: You’re welcome. 

Lori: So thinking about threads that you see between schools, what are some common threads that for those schools that are able to make those sweeping cultural changes that you’ve seen?  

Kevin: Hmm.I think it’s a coming together of the culture piece that I talked about previously, but also looking super deep at your policies. And we find that many of our districts have collective bargaining agreements that are just rooted in ableism and continue the message that students with disabilities require more and they require different. And when we other this idea of special needs, then we are in our language, segregating students because we’re singling out students with disabilities needs as special. I think calibrating across all students that all students have needs across different contexts. I think it’s the districts that really focus on the disability and changing the mindsets around disabilities, and then connecting that to the policies that they’ve created and allow, and thirdly, the practices.

Lori:Yeah.

Kevin: I think the last part of that is that the districts that are making the most movement have collective responsibility for making changes around inclusion, and by collective responsibility at the leadership level, it’s not just curriculum and special ed and general ed, it’s also facilities, it’s also business and budget, it’s human resources, like how are we all working together to change that mindset around disability so that our teachers are coming into a culture that they’re very clear on and the accountability measures and the expectations for them in the classroom, where we have that powerful relationship that makes change between teachers and students.

Lori: Yeah, well, what you were saying, it made me think about the term special education in general, which I’m sure we could hold an entire podcast on and we’ve met with individuals and disability advocates such as Emily Ladau and Derek LaHorn and others who, oh, yeah, you’ve got her book, Demystifying Disability, right, and their ideas on special education. And so what is your group using as a term for special education? Are you still calling it special education in your districts and what are your thoughts on that?

Kevin: It’s still special education. What, and mostly because that’s what people are familiar with. 

Lori: Right. 

Kevin: But what we’re actually moving toward is this idea of rightful presence. The federal government just funded a new National TA Center called the National Center on Inclusion Toward Rightful Presence. So we’ve been infusing rightful presence into all of our professional learning opportunities and going deeper into rightful presence as a frame for ensuring environments are designed and representative of the students they are designed for, right? Often students with disabilities come into classrooms, they’re invited or they’re welcomed into classrooms but the classroom isn’t designed in such a way that they’re not allowed for equity and access.

Right, the research on rightful presence just kind of mind flipped us a little bit the whole team You’ve actually been working with that center over the last year really to bring them into California and they’ve kind of infiltrated in the best best of ways Many of our really upper level state work to start laying the foundation that inclusion isn’t just about students being present or Known or just invited but they’re involved and that they’re needed and that they influence diversity in the classrooms in such a positive way.

Lori: Yeah Wow, I could just listen to you all day because this is really great I’m just a little passionate about it and I love that I love that passion and and I’m now a super fan of the term rightful presence, so thank you for introducing that to me. My last question for you is, can you share a success story from a school or organization that you’ve worked with where you’ve really watched that shift or that they were able to make those sweeping changes, we were talking about?

Kevin: I’m going to share an example that it’s one of our large urban districts that we work with. And they have been in significant disproportionality, they have been not meeting special education indicators in a big way for a long time. Over the past couple months, since we’ve been able to actually work within their curriculum and instruction department, their curriculum instruction department, their focus is literacy, high quality first instruction, and climate and culture.

And we’ve been able to bring all of the external technical assistance providers, as well as ourselves, to then start talking about how their work is integrating and how it all comes up through curriculum and instruction. And from the top down, creating that vision and then how we are able to integrate disability with all of the work that they do, simply by asking the question, who at the table, at all of these different meetings that they’re having, who at the table understands the disability voice? Even when we’re talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion teams, disability wasn’t a part of it.

It’s in special ed. It’s the special ed department’s responsibility. So bringing that voice into these open forums where all of the planning takes place has completely changed the focus of the directors around literacy, high quality instruction, and culture and climate. And it’s just moved the district in a very short time has moved the district in a way that they haven’t been moved in 15, 20 years. So it’s not that they’re…

Lori: fantastic. 

Kevin: It’s not that they’re a success at this point. 

Lori: Right. Yeah. 

Kevin: In that process of creating the structures that are going to make a difference.

Lori: Yeah. Yeah. Again, it’s not about what is success and success is that progress, that forward progress. So that’s really exciting. 

Kevin: Yeah, we’re excited about it. It’s great. 

Lori: Yeah. Yeah, it is great work. And I’m just so pleased to have had the opportunity to speak with you today. So thanks for your time.

Kevin: Thank you so much for having me and my team and my project.

Lori: Absolutely. Of course.

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Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and shownotes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcasts. Until next time… cheers!