Show #61 Don’t Dis My Disability- Part 2 “There’s a Fire in My Soul”

Show #61 Don’t Dis My Disability- Part 2 “There’s a Fire in My Soul”

Today, Nicole Demos, a SENIA Europe Board Member and a proud disabled Third Culture Kid, and host Lori Boll chat more about Nicole and how she now accepts her disability as part of her identity. Nicole shares her experiences growing up with a disability, frustrations and disappointments she went through and continues to navigate through with society and the systems not set up for the disabled community. Today’s discussion is Part 2 of the “Don’t Dis My Disability,” that Nicole has done. Check out Part One in Cath Brew’s podcast Drawn to a Deeper Story here. Nicole’s words are so important and so powerful, it’s worth more than one podcast!

Bio

Nicole Demos is proud to be a disabled Third Culture Kid herself with over 30 years experience in the US and overseas. She holds an M.A in Education from the University of Connecticut,  and an M.Ed in International Counseling. For the past eleven years, Nicole has been a Learning Support teacher for students in grades 6-12 at the International School of Helsinki. Advocacy, Inclusion and Social Emotional Wellbeing are core beliefs that Nicole values and implements daily. Previously Nicole has presented workshops at Nordic Network and CEESA. Spending time with loved ones and her toy poodle Sisu, singing, reading, traveling and cooking are Nicole’s hobbies when she is not at work. Nicole is a member of the SENIA Europe Board and is looking forward to presenting at the first conference in Bonn this Fall.

Connect with Nicole:

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Connect with Lori:

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hey listeners! I’m so excited to bring you today’s podcast – it’s with Nicole Demos who is one of our SENIA Europe Board Members and she’s just like… she’s just awesome. Our topic today goes beyond 30 minutes, so I just want to give you that warning now, but it’s actually not a warning because I think that conversation is quite rich and deep and Nicole has so much to share about her life as a disabled individual. She’s also a Third Culture Kid herself with over 30 years experience in the US and overseas. So she’s got tons to share and I just want to get right into it. So, onto the show. Hi Nicole and welcome to the podcast! 

Nicole: Thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here! 

Lori: Well, you are a SENIA star and we will talk about that later but just so happy to have you. 

Nicole: Happy to be here. 

Lori: So today, we’re going to follow up to that incredible podcast you did with Cath Brew recently and let me just explain this to the listeners – so Cath’s podcast is called Drawn to a Deeper Story and it’s truly phenomenal. Well, Cath is phenomenal. So no surprise there. Well, I’ve added this podcast to our shownotes and I recommend that anyone who’s listening pops off this podcast and listen to that podcast and then come back here so you can learn more from Nicole about not dissing your disability. 

Nicole: It’s a great title, isn’t it? 

Lori: Yes, it is. So Nicole, just in case we have some listeners here who didn’t get the opportunity to your interview with Cath, can you briefly describe your background and when you decided to identify yourself as disabled? 

Nicole: Okay, sure. I’m a Third Culture Kid which is a big part of who I am and where I fit into the world. I was born with cerebral palsy so I’ve always been disabled. I grew up however, in Athens, Greece. My father is of Greek descent and mother is from the Netherlands so there’s a little bit of internationalism in my background. I was fortunate to go to the same school from Kindergarten to Grade 12, they allowed me to enter on scholarship and then they made accommodations. But all through that period, I never thought of myself as disabled. I tried desperately hard to fit in with my classmates, desperately hard to be someone I wasn’t and so that sort of carried me along to university and finding my first job and it was only just recently that I said, you know what, I’m disabled and being disabled is okay so this is my time to just speak out and fight for myself and for those people who just don’t have the strengths or the energy or the know-how. And so I think what inspired Cath when we first met was the fact that I use disabled as a part of my pronoun, and I think she was intrigued by that and so that started the conversation and so this is me. It’s taken me 50 some odd years to say it loudly and proudly and as part of who I am but that’s not all of me. And I think that that’s an area of struggle for many people and maybe sometimes for me, but it’s kind of the way things have happened. You know, I’m in a wheelchair, I now currently use an electric wheelchair for the majority of my day, I used to be somewhat mobile in my younger years so as I learned to embrace this next chapter of my life, I really need more people to support me. It’s okay. It still feels a bit strange at times but I know that again, I’m going to repeat myself, but it’s okay, it needs to happen so that I can be the beset that I can be on a daily basis and I’m fortunate to live in Finland where these types of programmes and resources and people are available and the support system is there. So I’m very very lucky. So that contributed to me being able to… I don’t want to say “come out” but… identify. 

Lori: Yeah, identify! So, can you just briefly explain why you think that you didn’t identify as disabled when you were younger? 

Nicole: Yeah, I think it was because I just so wanted to be like everyone else – I didn’t see anyone else like me at my school, you know. The community where I lived in Greece, you did not see disabled people. They locked them up in mental institutions, that was the norm. Granted, this was 1970 and I would want to say that it’s changed, but it’s people’s lack of awareness and education and what should happen and simultaneously, I had that fear maybe hidden somewhere within me, and my parents were so super supportive and super advocating for me and they chose to stay in Greece where there were no services for children like me to the demise of our family in the United States who were all like, no, bring Nicole here! She can go to a special school. And my father who was an educator was like, no. There is nothing wrong with my daughter. She needs to be in a regular classroom and whatever support she needs, she’ll get it. So I kinda got a bit of both, but I think in my mind, I want to be like everyone else. I want to run. I want to do PE. I want play with my friends… and so I think it was an internal battle for so long, you know, and then I got on this kick like, you know.. I’m special. Well, yeah, I wasn’t using “special” in the right term, like I said, I didn’t have any role models, I didn’t have any examples, we did the best that we could. So when I finally did go to the United States for university, I was like “okay, everything is going to be accessible, everything is going to be great, my disability is not going to be an issue, I’m gonna drive a car and I’m gonna get a job and do all those things that I couldn’t do in Greece because the infrastructure was there, wasn’t there… 

And then suddenly, I got to the US, I got to university and I was hit with “I can’t get into this building” or “I can’t drive a normal car” or “I can’t get any help because I don’t understand what I need but there’s nobody there to guide me”. You know, my parents are still living in Greece, they’re doing the best that they can, and my family in the United States is busy with their own lives, so again, it was that battle. It was that, “you know what, suck it up, Nicole. Put that stiff upper lip up, you’ve got that resilience, you’ve got that Mediterranean, you know, just go for it, you know. Your mom and dad will support you, they’ll be your safety net, which they were and they are but I didn’t realise. I just was like okay, I’m going to do whatever it takes to be normal and that was my word. 

Lori: Normal…

Nicole: Normal. I’m going to be normal, you know. 

Lori: Your words, resilience and stiff upper lip, that really resonates with me because when we watch, we watch news stories or things where they’re celebrating what an individual with disability has done, it’s always that individual had so much resilience, you know. They push through. And it just makes me wonder, why? Why do we have a system set up where they have to have that resilience? You know, it’s just contant work instead of… yeah. 

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that, that’s the hardest thing for me to kind of deal with. I’m tired of working so hard, you know? 

Lori: Yeah.

Nicole: I’m tired of working, I’m tired of having to prove myself time and time again, ten times over, see me, hear me, look at me for who I am. It’s more than just the person being in the chair, you know? 

Lori: Yeah, yeah. 

Nicole: And now I think it’s time. I mean, okay, it might’ve been time earlier but this is my time and if I can serve as a mouthpiece even for myself and say let’s do something, let’s change, let’s include, let’s just try… and if we fail, that’s fine, but if it gives us the impetus to keep trying again, you know. So in many ways when I look back, I’m grateful for not wanting to be disabled in the sense because it gave me a different drive but reality suddenly reared its ugly head and it was like.. Ugh. 

Lori: Right…

Nicole: you know, and that was one of the reasons I chose to be an international school teacher. Because I didn’t… somebody gave me a chance, right? It’s that chance. Somebody looked at me for my qualifications, my interests, my personality, my drive, my education and said, you know what, we want you. We want you for you even though we don’t know what that is right now. And that’s what happened, you know. 

Lori: Yeah, somebody gave you a chance. 

Nicole: I may not have gotten that chance if I had stayed in North America, sadly. 

Lori: Yeah. Unbelievable, actually… So you know well and most of the audience know that I’m a parent of a son with profound autism and there’s just been so many times where I felt that society has let him and they’ve let us down. And like you said, I’m tired. It’s that tired of constantly having to advocate for and fight for what my son deserves and…

Nicole: Exactly. 

Lori: And society has kind of let us down with either negative interactions with people, judgemental looks, comments, or just the system and how it’s not really set up for individuals with disabilities. 

Nicole: No, it’s not set up at all. 

Lori: So what are some frustrations you’ve felt throughout your life? 

Nicole: I think for me, it’s the lack of connection with people because they either don’t know how to act around you, they don’t know what to say, the judgement, the pre-judgement, if I’m with someone, they’ll address them before they address me…

Lori: Oh that happens all the time… Ask him!! 

Nicole: Yea, and I’m like, I’m the voice! Ask me! If I don’t want to answer, I won’t answer, you know? 

Lori: Right! 

Nicole: And some people have said, well, do you mind if people ask you questions and I’m like no. I know that some disabled people do and that’s their right but for me, I would rather you ask me 10 questions if you walk away with a better understanding of where I’m coming from at that present moment. So I think that that’s always been my frustration, still is my frustration, but now I have a personal assistant that accompanies me to school… they address her sometimes or they disregard her and address me, and well, there’s two of us now…

Lori: Right right… 

Nicole: So you address us both equally because if it wasn’t for this person, I wouldn’t be here right now. 

Lori: Right right. That shadow, we don’t address shadows, I get it…

Nicole: Right? So that whole thing with, oh well you want to do x, lesson x, but the room is not accessible for you to get into. Well you know what, if you wanted me to do this, then you would make the room accessible. You know? If you wanted me to join you on your outing, I wouldn’t have to call the restaurant in advance to find out where is the nearest bathroom, are there stairs, can I get in, the assumption of a ramp… unless you’re sitting in this wheelchair whether it’s a manual or an electric wheelchair, you won’t know. But why do I have to fight even before I get in the door or then say sorry Lori, I can’t join you because guess what. 

Lori: It’s not accessible. Yep. 

Nicole: Yeah, it’s not accessible. I know that some countries in the world don’t have accessibility avenues to make things work and I appreciate that and I know that but I’m talking about places in Europe and North America that have laws that say, you know what, what is it, the IDA, or whatever that is still not accessible. It’s unacceptable. It’s 2022. 

Lori: Yep. Well sometimes, they have ramps but the ramps are so steep that someone may not have the arm strengths to get up that ramp without support. I mean, just…

Nicole: Exactly. So it’s the lack of accessibility, the constant having to prove myself, not being treated as a human being. At the end of it all, if you strip it away, I’m a human being and I have feelings and I have wants and I have needs and I want to belong and I want to be helpful and I want to be friendly. But if you look at me from the perspective of “oh, we’re not going to look at you because you’re a waste of time or you’re wasting my time”… that’s the biggest and I want to be naive and say I wish it would go away, but until we educate people about how important it is to be kind and treat people with respect and give them what they deserve, it’s not going to change. 

Lori: Yeah, I get the what’s frustrating for me a lot of the times is when I’m in a room and people start talking to me about what my son has done and he’s in the room with me and it’s generally a negative thing in their eyes and I always have to say, can we go to a separate room? He doesn’t like to be talked about. You know, in front of him. And it’s just that disregard that this person, although he doesn’t have the verbal language to express it, that he doesn’t have feelings. 

Nicole: He feels!!! Of course!! 

Lori: Right. 

Nicole: In fact, I’m pretty sure he feels more than us, you know, to compensate for the fact that he has no words. And why can’t you start a conversation with a positive rather than a negative? Because I’m sure that you must be feeling like, enough with the negative, tell me something good! 

Lori: Right. I already know he does all these things – that’s not new to me, right? But I’m getting off the topic of you… 

Nicole: that’s okay! 

Lori: So now, how do you cope with disappointment now that you’ve embraced your disability identity? 

Nicole: That’s still a tough one, you know?

Lori: Sure. 

Nicole: Because I know outside of my disability how educated I am, how qualified I am, how engaging and supportive I am, and yet, when it has to do with a job or it has to do with something outside of… it hurts still, because I’m not given that chance. When words are said like, “oh you don’t have experience”, I’m like, have you seen my resume? Like, I didn’t start being a special education person just yesterday… there’s a track record here. So how do I deal with disappointment? 

I’m very emotional, as if you couldn’t tell.. I do the tears, the tears come, I’m learning very hard to not let them show in front of other people and I don’t know why I feel like that… the reflection, maybe because I’ve been told “you’re too emotional”. I’m sorry, in my job as a learning support teacher, I am going to be emotional because I can advocate for my students til doom’s day, for the lack of a better word, but I can’t advocate for myself. And that’s still what I’m trying really hard to learn, but i don’t know if I can fully change my personality. I feel. I feel with my heart. I’m a Mediterranean. I, you look at me the wrong way, I’m gonna cry. And if I’m not gonna cry, I’m gonna scream. I don’t know which one is better! So you know, I’m fortunate that my mother is still alive, my biggest cheerleader is watching me from above and he fought for me and if he could see what I’m doing now, I think he would be so proud. But you know, I have good solid friends, I’ve made new friends and new connections who support me beyond belief and I’ve never met them in person. I take that as a glorious gift and I say okay, I’m lucky. And if I can just give back, just a little, even a little smidge to someone else… see, I’m getting emotional! 

Lori: No, I’m glad. You should have feelings and you should feel…

Nicole: That’s what it means right now and if there’s a lesson that I’ve learnt, it’s that it’s okay to sit with my feelings if I need to cry, I’m going to cry. If I need to scream, I need to scream. If I need to go and meditate, then I’m gonna go and meditate. If I need to, you know, practice self-care, then I’m gonna do that. And if that’s offensive to someone else, then you don’t need to be a part of it, you know? If that means that my friendships will get smaller… disappointment is hard. It doesn’t go away no matter how old you are, what you’re doing, it’ll always be a struggle because… 

Lori: Yeah, of course. 

Nicole: Because it’s… it’s human nature to be disappointed and I’m trying to learn how to deal with it in a more powerful, productive way, and maybe this is a platform for me to deal with it, is to take all that disappointment and say, you know what, I don’t want a little girl sitting in a wheelchair somewhere else having to go through what I went through. If she can take something from hearing me or seeing me or learning about inclusivity and what it means to treat people kindly and fairly, then that’s wonderful. That’s a start. 

Lori: Would it be fair to say that when you do experience disappointment, you might come at it through the lens of “this is due to my disability happening?” 

Nicole: Could be. 

Lori: Right. And there’s no judgment there, I just… 

Nicole: No! 

Lori: It’s your identity, right? 

Nicole: Right! And I think you know, maybe on some level, going back to that whole issue of I’m tired of fighting, I’m tired of disappointment. So when someone else who doesn’t really know me says wow, we really want you to be part of… we really want you to be part of SENIA or you know, can you help me with this, I’m like, oh yeah, of course, thank you! You’re giving me a chance. You don’t even know me but there’s no judgment there, it’s just genuine like, we want to hear from you. And that sometimes takes me aback. These are people that don’t know me, but how warm and wonderful it feels because I feel like I belong to something. I feel like I’m a part of… it feels really good. And then you get to say, well, why can’t everybody see that. I mean, I’m not saying that I deserve everything but why can’t there at least be some sort of acknowledgement that you know.. So that’s why I’m really focusing on the adventures and the tasks that bring me joy outside of teaching. 

Lori: Well, and I think your voice is so essential – you know there’s that whole phrase of nothing about us without us. That you know, how can technically we be advocating for individuals with disabilities when none of us have disabilities. We may have children with disabilities or we teach children with disabilities and I think that it’s so important that we know we’re their advocates but to have your voice and people with, individuals with disabilities’ voices, we have to hear them. Otherwise, we’re… we may be advocating for the wrong things. 

Nicole: Yeah. And I mean, everyone’s situation is different, everyone has their own obstacles that they have to face and we all have our own stories and we have to find ways to tell them, and it’s important that we tell them and it’s important that we give hope to others around the world that you know, maybe for cultural reasons can’t say anything or that you don’t have the technology or whatever. It’s so important. And that’s why I’m so grateful. 

Lori: Well, like all of us, you know, we’ve had times in our lives we wish we could go back and do it all again. Have a better response to a situation where somebody treated us poorly or whatever, have a witty comment in response, you know, I’ve gone back and had many conversation where I should’ve said this. If only I would’ve. Do you have any of those moments? 

Nicole: Oh yeah. Tons. I mean, I’m sure I could probably list them all and we’d be here all night, not that I would want to do that… but I think the biggest take away from that is that it’s okay to have those moments of reflection where I say, I should’ve… why wasn’t I brave enough? Why didn’t I say what I should’ve said? Or why didn’t I speak up even when I knew what to say? Why didn’t I just say “Oh I’m not sure” so I think that’s why maybe I’m more energetic now than I was before because enough is enough. 

Lori: Enough is enough. 

Nicole: Enough is enough.

Lori: You know, just the other day, so I play on a softball team, and I don’t know the people that I’m playing with and a man, we’re really bad, the team is terrible…

Nicole: I’m sure you’re not! 

Lori: I didn’t say I was! 

Nicole: If it wasn’t for you, there wouldn’t be a team, right?! 

Lori: The team is terrible… but one man, he was joking, and he said gosh, I feel like we’re that special ed class where all the others in the school feel sorry for us. And I sat with that for a moment and I was just like. “Oh no. This is not okay.” And I don’t know him. And I just had to say, “can you think of a different analogy?” Like, I have a child with special needs, this type of comment is very hurtful and very disrespectful. 

Nicole: What was the reaction? 

Lori: He was. He very much apologized and said “I’m sorry, I was just trying to be funny” and I said “Yeah, yeah, I get that. It’s just not funny”. 

Nicole: No, it’s not funny…

Lori: But that type of interaction for me is so hard. I’m a staunch advocate for my students but it’s really hard when you’re in a social situation or whatever, to just be like… you know, like, the R word… I will automatically say “no, we don’t say that word” like, I say that any time I hear it – No, that word is not okay. But in these other situations, the joke always was the short bus? Do you know that?

Nicole: Yeah, I’ve heard that. We don’t have that where I come from. 

Lori: Yeah, it’s not a funny joke. So, it always just shocks me that it’s such… it’s such basic humor. Like, can’t you be funnier than that? Can’t you be a little more… use more of your intelligence to come up with a funny joke? 

Nicole: Right! And I don’t know if the people that hear it are stunned at the remark and they’re compelled to laugh because everyone else is laughing or they’re like so ignorant to the fact that that’s hurtful… it just…

Lori: Yeah, right, it goes back to that whole thing we have to educate our society about what that is and how hurtful that is. 

Nicole: Yeah, so in answer to your question, I have a lot of things I wish I could do over but maybe the fact that I did them the way I did just helped somewhere within me, just build that fire. One of my favourite songs actually that I shared with Cath was, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the group, The Script, well, their Superhero song. I have fire in my soul – that’s what I’m feeling now. And of course. That’s going to be my next tattoo so yeah. But you know, that’s what I’m feeling so I’m going to stick with it. I’m gonna bring people along for the ride. 

Lori: I love it. Fire in my soul. 

Nicole: The fire’s not gonna burn out.

Lori: You talked about earlier, you talked about not having anyone who was like you in your school or growing up. So I’m curious about role models – did you have anyone to inspire you growing up? 

Nicole: I remember my father talking about a book he was given about a young girl that had cerebral palsy and the book was titled Karen, it was about a young girl in the late 1960’s, I think Karen Kilaleo was her name, and she had cerebral palsy, and my father said when he read that book, he knew instantly that that book was talking about me. Like, he made connections to some of the things he had read. I don’t wanna say that she was my role model but that was the only mention I had. I mean, I didn’t have any library books I could check out that talked about kids in wheelchairs or anything like that and I wanna say I thought my father was a role model because he was my biggest cheerleader but outside of those two people, I didn’t have anything else. I mean, I didn’t watch any TV shows that highlighted the strengths and challenges of someone with a disability, I didn’t know until later on in life about programmes like the Special Olympics. You know, all these things and maybe some of that was because I wasn’t living in North America, you know. And I was living in Greece. But still. Now I’m finding out that meeting and learning about all these powerful men and women who are just advocating for themselves, people like Judith Human, like I didn’t know her story and the movie Crip Camp and I don’t know if you saw that documentary, which just opened my eyes beyond belief. I was just like, why didn’t I know?! That kind of feeling. It was just amazing. People like Emily LeDao, on demystifying disability, just amazing amazing powerful people who are just saying, you know what, it’s okay to be just like us. So I think most of my role models now are coming later on in life. And I’m so happy but I wish, you know, I wish I had known that there were people out there who were struggling, just like me. You know, I wish I didn’t have to walk down the street and get spit at when I was on crutches and be told how dare my parents let me out of the house. You know, it’s things like that that still sticks in my head. So what was my response? I was not very nice to that elderly lady. 

Lori: Right. 

Nicole: But she didn’t speak to me like that again! But it caused me more hurt than it did her. 

Lori: Yeah, so you’re now… you’re now reflecting on yourself and your reaction rather than the totally inappropriate things that she said.

Nicole: Right. I was proud of myself – I walked home by myself, yes, it was 500m away from home but I did it myself. Put the groceries in my backpack. That was huge for me! For somebody else, maybe not, but then, here’s the woman who spit at me. An elderly woman who literally. Ugh. Anyway… So like I said, my role models came later on in life. And I hope that I’ll find more. I’m sure there’s more but 

Lori: Well, there’s more. But I hope you know that you’re a role model. 

Nicole: Thank you. 

Lori: Do you consider yourself a role model?

Nicole: Not yet. Not yet. 

Lori: Well, you are to us. 

Nicole: How about a role model in the making? 

Lori: Okay, fair….

Nicole: That’s all I can handle right now. But I think… I still have a long way to go and a lot to learn. But I appreciate that.

Lori: Well, I think all role models have a long way to go and a lot to learn… And, you’re… you’re a board member of SENIA Europe and you’re also a frequent contributor to our newsletter. Because you read an awful lot. 

Nicole: I do, I love to read.

Lori: Yeah, you’re a reader and you give us so many articles about, for, under the title of “What We Are Reading”. I mean, yeah, you’re constantly learning but you’re sharing what you’re learning and that makes you a role model. Sharing about your story, sharing about other stories. So, you may be in the making but aren’t we all?

Nicole: Yea I’ll take that. I’ll learn to take that. 

Lori: Just take it! Pat yourself on the back. So, you are a board member of SENIA Europe and we are so thankful for all your contributions. How did you get involved with SENIA and what does SENIA mean to you? 

Nicole: For me, it just brings about that feeling of belonging and knowing that you’re fighting for a common goal which is to be inclusive, to educate, to make people aware of everything that should be a right to everyone regardless. And I think it came at  a time in my life, first, it was during COVID so you know, everyone was struggling for a variety of ways but I had applied for a couple of internal positions and I didn’t get them and I was feeling.. Really just down on myself. I really wanted to find something that would give me purpose. And I saw something on Facebook or somebody shared something about SENIA and I looked into it, you know, I went on the website, international website, I looked at articles and past things and then I somehow connected with April. April Remfrey. And then when the notice came that they were looking for members to be part of the Europe board, I thought, yeah. Why not. Let me give it a go. I’ve got nothing to lose, just do it. And it gave me focus, you know. Okay, what am I going to say? How am I going to interact? What am I going to do? And then it was funny because when she told me “no we’d love to have you on board”, I was like “are you… serious?!” 

Lori: right?!

Nicole: Yeah, I doubted myself. But from that, I was like… okay, this is this is what I wish would’ve been around for me when I was a student. You know. When I was struggling. When I fought to get that 5 extra minutes so I wouldn’t be late to class but I had to leave the other class early. You know. So I think for me, SENIA has just opened doors and just brought a common vision and it warms my heart. And I’m so grateful to you, and everyone else that just had the impetus to start something that is just amazing and it’s not to sound… this is genuine, you know, this is what’s needed. So. 

Lori: To be clear, I didn’t start it… I joined about 9 years into it. You know, we’re 20 now! 

Nicole: Yea, I know! But you know, I bet, like you were part of the early vision. And other people that just said “enough is enough”. 

Lori: Yep. 

Nicole: You know, going back to that phrase. This is going to be the catchphrase of the year, right, “enough is enough”. So I’m just… it brings me such joy to just be able to be a part of something that is so amazing and so needed and so worthy a cause. But it shouldn’t even be a cause! It should just be… like a daily routine! You know? It’s just… 

Lori: Yes. It should.. It just is. It’s just life, right? Yeah, that’s what it should be. Well, I hear there’s something very exciting coming along… 

Nicole: Yes! 

Lori: Collaboration that you’re doing with Cath Brew…

Nicole: Collaboration. Yes. It’s very exciting. I have been sitting on this project since I first got my Masters degree – it’s actually in gifted education but of course they don’t call it that, it was just education through the University of Connecticut, and we had a creativity class. And our task was to create something that we felt that we wanted to share with the world. So I wrote my story in the form of a children’s book. It wasn’t my real, there were certain parts of it that was very very real and certain parts that had to do with what I aspired to be able to do and it was great, I loved it, it was very cathartic for me, but I put it away. I put it away on the bookshelf, I’d gotten one of those… I don’t know what they’re called. They’re bound books that you can get and kids can write in them? I’d gotten one of those and done it and I typed everything up and my friend drew some pictures and I wanted her to do them in the style of young children, and so I enjoyed it and I appreciated it, but then as I was going through this journey of identifying as being disabled, you know, start presenting in conferences and stuff, I thought, what about my book? Let me do something about my book. And it was actually during the virtual SENIA conference this past December that I listened to Cath Brew’s presentation. And I don’t know, something was said and it just sparked that initial fire, and I thought, you know what, let me do some research. So again, I did some research, looked up what Cath was all about, looked up how she you know, talked about TCK kids and marginalised people and I thought… I wonder if she’d be willing to at least give me some feedback on my manuscript, because I had done the whole… send your manuscript to the publishers and gotten the standard “thank you so much, blah blah blah”. So I met with April, once again, and I said “do you think she’d be willing to check it out for me?” and she said “sure, give it a whirl”, so I reached out to Cath and immediately Cath said “let’s have a chat” and that’s when the whole idea of the podcast initially came out because of my identifying as disabled and then through conversation, she said “I really really like your story and what you’ve written here. What are your plans?” and I said, “well, you know, in the ideal world, I would love to publish it and I would love to send it out and have it be a part of international school libraries because again, it promotes disability in a positive light”, I’m not gonna give too much away of the story, and she said “let’s do it!” and I was like… “are you serious?!” 

Lori: ahahaha! 

Nicole: You know, again, that doubting…

Lori: Yeah yeah. 

Nicole: So that’s in the works. That’s gonna be a while… 

Lori: Sure! Ahhhh! That’s so exciting! 

Nicole: So, that’s the goal. 

Lori: Wow, I cannot wait. I cannot wait. 

Nicole: Then, one of the other things is focusing on publishing companies that deal with stories of marginalized people so you know, that’s… so if that for some reason doesn’t work, we’ll have some other avenues but I’m hopeful that, you know, it’ll work. And again, if it spreads awareness, if it brings joy, if it brings conversation, if it brings… you know, that’s what it’s all about. Just to share something. Yeah. 

Lori: That’s gonna be great. 

Nicole: I hope so! 

Lori: I know you, I know you both and I just know it’s going to be phenomenal. Wow. 

Nicole: We’re taking it at a pace that is good for both of us so it feels right and I said to Cath right away, this isn’t MY project, it’s OUR project, so let’s look at it as that. 

Lori: Love it. 

Nicole: It’s a collaborative effort, and you know, hopefully it goes beyond friends and family that want to support to the world. You know, it’s not about the monetary thing, you know, if anyone is like “oh, she’s…” but this is about just sharing a story, having a voice, hopefully giving others a voice… 

Lori: I think most people that write books know that it’s not about the money… hahaha it’s not.. Very likely that you know…

Nicole: Yeah. And this takes place in Greece, you know, where I grew up for most of my life, so again, it brings things that are true and yet some things that may be a little bit embellished but it’s a story and it’s mine and I’m anxious to share it and it will be…

Lori: I’m anxious to read it! Well, finally, you, as you know, SENIA is all about inclusion. What tips do you have for us to educate and make others aware of inclusion? 

Nicole: I think the most important is meet whoever where they’re at. Validate what they’re feeling, meet them where they’re at, be supportive, be kind, allow them to process because there’s a lot that goes with processing, be their advocate if you can… I know it’s more than 1 tip, but just… it’s a package, you know? It’s a package. 

Lori: Yea, you can’t just do one thing.

Nicole: You can’t just do one thing. It’s not gonna happen when you want it, it’s gonna happen when that person is ready. When that family is ready. Or when those, when everything is in place, all the supports, all the resources, are ready and willing to go. And honestly, in education, it’s okay to not know what you have to do. That’s why we’re all collectively involved in something like this, you know. We’re not experts, but if we look at it from the perspective of “what’s the best thing for Nicole, for Lori, for Brayden, for Joey, everything…” what’s the best for them right now so that they can walk away from whatever setting they are in feeling like “oh, today was a success”. Or if it wasn’t a success, I tried. And my trying was okay. I think that’s the biggest lesson. That’s what I strive to do every day as a teacher and that’s why I, you know, I know, I wasn’t able to attend graduation this year but I got wonderful messages from graduating seniors who I supported for 6 years plus, that’s what I’m going to take away. That’s what I’m going to print off and put it in my little book. 

Lori: Yeah. 

Nicole: And when I have those moments of doubt or disappointment, I’m going to take those out and say, you know what, I did make a difference. I helped. If you’d asked me a couple of years ago, I’d be like “No, it’s the kids!”

Lori: Oh yeah.

Nicole: Yea, it’s the kids! But it’s also me. And everyone else that was involved in the education. So. 

Lori: I call that my “smile file”.

Nicole: Yeah, I like that! 

Lori: Yeah, just to… unfortunately, I lost mine… It was like, an actual file that I carried around with me… somewhere in my many moves, that smile file disappeared… 

Nicole: It’s probably in a box somewhere… 

Lori: Probably in a box somewhere, yes. You’re right. 

Nicole: Well, now you can create an updated smile file. 

Lori: There you go! 

Nicole: And have a back up! And have it paper and digitally! I’m still an advocate of paper, all this computer stuff… 

Lori: That involves a lot of executive functioning skills… that I don’t currently have. 

Both laughs 

Lori: Well, Nicole, I mean, what a great conversation. I hope we can continue to have these because you have so much to teach us. 

Nicole: Yeah, I would be more than happy to continue. Thank you for the opportunity. 

Lori: And I, yeah, my little challenge, well, it’s not little, but my challenge to everyone listening is to… if you’re in an international school that doesn’t have an inclusive mindset, either advocate for it or go out and find one because… 

Nicole: Yep! A lot of us know how to help! 

Lori: Yes, exactly. That’s why we’re here. We wanna help and support but yea, I don’t think I’ll rest easy until schools all over the world are inclusive so. I think I have many restless nights ahead, but…

Nicole: Me neither. We’re on our way.

Lori: We’re on our way. 

Nicole: Every step, a wheel forward is, you know, it’s in the right direction.

Lori: I’m gonna change it to we’ve got fire in our soul. 

Nicole: Absolutely. 

Lori: Maybe that’ll be the theme of our next conference! 

Nicole: We’ve got enough fire! We share the wealth of the fire.

Lori: That’s right. Alright, well, you’re the best and we appreciate you. 

Nicole: Thank you Lori, I appreciate you guys as well!  

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #62 Strength-Based, Talent-Focused Education

Show #62 Strength-Based, Talent-Focused Education

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Samuel Young the founder of Scholars Academy, a strength-based, talent-focused virtual enrichment center that supports twice-exceptional students and their families. Sam is a neurodivergent educator who has ADHD. As an ADHD learner, he has a tremendous understanding of, experience in, and respect for all things related to neurodiverse education. Today, Sam and I talk about our 2E students and how using a strength-based and talent focused approach is so beneficial for them. 

Bio

Samuel Young, MEd, is a growth-minded, two-time Fulbright Scholar and Director of Young Scholars Academy, a strength-based, talent-focused virtual enrichment center that supports twice-exceptional students and their families. Samuel is a neurodivergent educator who has ADHD. As an ADHD learner, he has a tremendous understanding of, experience in, and respect for all things related to neurodiverse education.

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

 

Lori: Hi everyone, today I have the pleasure of speaking with Samuel Young, or Mr.Sam. Sam has quite the background – he’s a two time Fullbright scholar and director of Young Scholars Academy, which is a strength based, talent focused, virtual enrichment centre that supports twice exceptional students and their families. Sam’s a neurodivergent educator who has ADHD. As an ADHD learner, he has a tremendous understanding of experiences and a respect for all things related to neurodiverse education. Today Sam and I talk about our 2E students and how strength based and talent focused approach is so beneficial for them. So now, onto the show. Well, hi Sam and welcome to the podcast. 

 

Sam: Hi Lori, thank you so much for having me. 

 

Lori: You bet. So you’ve created a virtual enrichment center for twice exceptional students. Would you mind just telling us who twice exceptional students are and what twice exceptional actually means? 

 

Sam: Yeah, that’s a really good question and I find that I always say that my dream is if I can not tell people that, you know, when I get… when I say “I teach twice exceptional students” for someone to say “way to go!”

 

Lori: Right.

 

Sam: Twice exceptional is one of the least known terms but one of those that people go “Oh, I know someone like that”. The idea is that… I’m a very visual person so I think of it in terms of the bell curve. So the idea is that someone has dual exceptionalities – they have an exceptional gift or a strength area to the right of the bell curve, the above average ability or strength, and then they have an exceptional difference, difficulty, or challenge area and that would be to the left of the bell curve. So the way that I like to describe it is that 2E people are always straddling the bell curve – they always have a foot in the exceptional strength and a foot in the exceptional difficulty. And then to make things a little more complicated, because if that wasn’t already complicated enough, sometimes, one’s gift can overshadow, or what we call mask, one’s difference or difficulty and the same is true the opposite direction – sometimes someone’s difference depending on the context can mask, so if someone like a a Simone Biles, an incredible gymnast, has ADHD may have struggled, I don’t know her whole story, but may have struggled in the classroom… context dependent, you might see her as someone who only struggled or you only see her in the gym as someone who only thrived and so the idea is that, you know, twice exceptional people are always both things. It’s just not always clear… that one half exists, if that makes sense.

 

Lori: Yep. I really love that visual. I do. Um, just yesterday my husband and I were having this conversation about someone that we know who, my husband described, this man, is on the Autism spectrum and my husband described him as “high-functioning”. And I said “yes, AND that’s the spectrum looks different now, rather than it being linear, it’s more of a circle spectrum where they have very high talents in certain areas and then others might be very low”. So that was just another visual that has come out lately where you know, they’ve got the high, they’ve got the low, and how do we help and support them in the lows and the highs, right? 

 

Sam: Exactly. How can we… the idea is that how can we dual-differentiate. How can we accommodate someone in their strength area and how can we also accommodate someone in the areas they struggle. And you know, in the autism community, there is, there is some push-back, there’s concern around some of the language that’s been used, like the ableism language? 

 

Lori: Yeah, exactly. 

 

Sam: Like, high – functioning, low – functioning because of the inherent assumptions people make around that so that’s definitely something that’s used a lot and I think also now a movement away from that sort of language to see everyone take a strength based perspective instead. Like, what is this person as a human, rather than being like an autistic person being like a person who has autism…

 

Lori: Right, yeah. 

 

Sam: and what is this person, like, who are they? What do they do? What are they passionate about? 

 

Lori: Well, and just as an aside, it does get a little tricky because there are individuals in the autism community who do want to be known as Autistic, that’s their identity. 

 

Sam: Absolutely.

Lori: So it’s, um, it’s something that we’re all learning and what members of the community have asked of me, is that we just ask. Ask them, what do you want your identity to be. Do you want autistic individual or an individual with autism. 

 

Sam: Yeah no I think that’s great. I think just in life, the thing about race, gender, pronouns… 

 

Lori: Yeah. Just ask.

 

Sam: Yeah, just ask. And that’s one of the things that’s most uncomfortable to do but it’s usually the best thing we can do. 

 

Lori: Mm-hmm. Well, how did you get involved in this field in the first place? 

 

Sam: It’s… well, so I grew up, so my dad’s an artist and always very visibly had strengths and struggle areas so he’s dylexic and has ADHD and he’s almost 75 now so he grew up in a time when that wasn’t really a thing. So if you had ADHD and couldn’t really pay attention, you went to military school. Or some other place. So kinda growing up watching him and seeing that in myself, I also have ADHD and maybe undiagnosed dyslexia so seeing that constant negative reinforcement of things that I’m not good at, very early on, I think 4th grade I was diagnosed with ADHD and I had like, learning support tutors and… but I was really strong at conversing with people and leading people. My dad always jokes that my kindergarten teacher said “If I wanted the class to do something, I just need to convince Sam!” you know, so I had these interpersonal skills but it wasn’t something I was cognizant of because it didn’t really seem to matter in school, like the reports like “Sam’s struggling to read” or struggling with phonics or can’t stay in the seat… removing, I always sat next to the teacher, my desk was touching the teacher’s desk…

 

Lori: Preferential seating! 

 

Sam: Exactly, yeah. 

 

Lori: Preferred for who…? Hahaha

 

Sam: So I had a pretty loving, great experience, but I think as I got older, and I got more and more into education, I knew I wanted to serve people with learning differences and I wanted to serve people who had strengths that were not being tapped into. And then fast forward a couple years, I discovered Bridges Academy in Los Angeles, at a career fair, which I could go on about forever, it’s a pretty cool story… and fell in love with Bridges. I learnt about twice exceptional, they flew me down to Los Angeles, I was actually living in San Francisco at the time and the rest is history. I developed a research center and got involved there, did all the graduate school, I attended the graduate school and got my degree there so. 

 

Lori: Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit about Bridges Academy, just for people who are not…

 

Sam: Yeah! So Bridges is really kind of the first spin, the flagbearer of the twice exceptional space. They started 20 years ago now and it was just started as a very small cohort that grew and they were one of the first programmes that were looking to educate twice exceptional students and take a strength based approach. So looking at student strength and rather than bringing out the bottom and focusing on the deficits, and helping them get by, it was like developing talent, you know? 

 

Lori: Nice. 

 

Sam: Just focusing on the higher parts. And so they slowly but surely grew from a small cohort into an office into a school. And they’re really kind of the flagship to the programme there. The school has grown, they have a school in Los Angeles, and there’s actually one up in Seattle now, and they’ve just opened an online school… I mean, they have. It’s a conglomerate of research centers and… they’re massive.

 

Lori: Okay.

 

Sam: And so you know, being in the center of it all, being in the laboratory school, I got to really see a different approach to education and I really immersed myself in it and explored all kinds of teaching and models. You know, teaching students who may be struggled to write, having them be on a state – recognised debate team or working on taking students who aren’t necessary schoolhouse strong and I’d have a 1950 Chevy pick up truck and I’d be like “hey why don’t we just rebuild this at school?” 

 

Lori: Ahhh I love it. 

 

Sam: Yeah so just kind of trying different things and seeing what works? 

 

Lori: Oh, that sounds amazing! 

 

Sam: Yeah! 

 

Lori: Cool – and you’ve got so many individuals that I’ve worked with in the past that like… “oh I need to tell them about this place!” 

 

Sam: Yeah, it’s a great place. And then when the pandemic hit, I thought this is incredible what we’re doing and we’re just embracing the internet but I had families who I had worked with who had friends who didn’t live in Los Angeles and people just started tapping me and saying “hey would you do what you did but for younger kids online? You know, we have a friend who’s got a 10 year old and they would love your crypto class or… the entrepreneurship class or… we have a friend in New York City or Chicago or whatever…” and so I just sort of kinda slowly started and I realised, “holy cow, there’s something here.” I could create like a virtual Bridges of sorts. 

 

Lori: Yeah! 

 

Sam: And so… I did. I created Young Scholars Academy and then I left Bridges and that’s been really kind of the mission – take twice exceptional students and neurodivergent students from all over the world and bringing them together. 

 

Lori: That’s great! And so that was going to be one of my questions later on

 

Sam: Oh! I can talk more about it. 

 

Lori: No, let’s ask now. So let us know more about Young Scholars Academy. 

 

Sam: Sure, and I’m happy by the way, to talk more about it later. Okay, so yeah, the vision of Young Scholars Academy, it’s a virtual after school programme that offers after school classes and the idea is just giving students who might be bullied or in a system that doesn’t see their strengths or just feeling isolated or longing for friends… you know, it’s difficult for these students because they’re asynchronous. You might have an 11 year old who might be reading at a college or a graduate school level and then has maybe the social emotional challenges of someone who’s maybe 7. And so taking that asynchrony, they struggle with their peers, they struggle with older students or younger students, and so they really need one another and so I wanted to create a place, like a virtual village. I wanted to create a virtual ecosystem where students could come together and take courses that align with their strengths and interests, and just make them feel good. Make them feel like they’re not alone and intellectually stimulated and socially connected. 

 

So we do that by offering intimate classes with, you know, neurodivergent mentors. I really believe, and I can talk more about that too, I believe that students need to look up at someone who’s like them and look over at people who’s like them. And we do that by offering stuff that you can’t find anywhere else. Yeah, cryptocurrency, entrepreneurship, investing, speech & debate for young kids, Dungeons and Dragons club… you name it. 

 

Lori: Awesome. Yeah. And how old are the students that come to your academy? 

 

Sam: So, I use the word laboratory, we’re always trying… new things. But right now, it’s 7 to 20. So we sort of have 4 cohorts, 7 to 10, 11 to 14, and 15 to 18ish, and there’s a college cohort. 

 

Lori: Okay, perfect! So you’ll just keep growing as long as… 

 

Sam: Yeah, I hope so! For the younger kids, the asynchronies are more pronounced and so parents are often in kind of more of a crisis so although I’m more, I’m a high school teacher at heart, originally, and now I think that the lion’s share of kids that I work with are under 10. So it’s been a radical change and I really enjoy that after teaching high school for 10 years. My days are all over the place. I’ll be helping college freshmen build, you know, like comprehensive task management systems and then working with 7-10 year olds on understanding logos, pathos, and egos or something…

 

Lori: Well, let me ask you a scenario, just thinking about one individual who knows everything there is to know about airplanes. Military airplanes, all airplanes. This individual would love to go into the military but is struggling ebceause they do not take individuals with special needs, from what we researched. So, how, what could you do at your academy to build on that strength? 

 

Sam: So that’s a good question. So I have a programme, it’s not currently running right now but I try to bring interests and I’m gonna answer to it. I try to bring interest to all my class so if it’s, let’s say, entrepreneurship or a camp we’re running right now after we meet today is called content creators. So it’s about taking students who have a deep seated passion and they want to become a YouTuber or a TikToker or a vlogger. So I try to put interest at the center of things and then scaffold all the things we want, like so what do these parents want? I imagine all them are like “I want my kids to learn about disabilities or be more organized or meet deadlines” or come out of the trance of ideation, and so taking that, putting it at the center, and in a creative way, adding a lot of the other things that we look for. 

 

The other way, oh by the way, I think really fast so if I’m all over the place, let me know. I have a lot of incomplete thoughts… umm, the other way that we do this is, I have a class actually called Young Scholars, Young Scholarship, and the idea is that the students are having a space in which they can have scaffolded support in exploring their interests. So how can we take what you love and turn it into a project that’s deliverable or something like that. So there’s sort of two way to do it. But to that kiddo and to that family, I would say, go deep. He’s a specialist. Schools and professionals don’t have the same values, as a culture. I think the Western world values specialists but in schools what we value, I mean, this is controversial, but mediocracy. You know. You want someone… like “you’re obsessed with airplanes! But you need to be able to solve these problems in math class” or whatever. But he might grow up to be the foremost expert, you know…

 

Lori: Yes! Exactly! 

 

Sam: For NASA or on Boeing… and like, no one cares. There’s, Joseph Renzulli, my favourite educational psychologist, who said “no one cares about Einstein’s ability to paint or Picasso’s scientific or mathematical skills”.

 

Lori: So true. 

 

Sam: That’s really relevant – we have kids who are like super strong with deep seated interests.

 

Lori: Yeah, yeah, and you just give them the space to explore those interests, even if… 

 

Sam: So I hope I answered your question, you know…

 

Lori: You did! Yeah. 

 

Sam: Okay. 

 

Lori: And I just threw that out at  you so thanks for being flexible. 

 

Sam: I loved it!! 

 

Lori: So, you know… so I think you’ve answered this. You’re a strong proponent for strength based and talent focused education. Why do you feel this is so important? 

 

Sam: Yeah, I think we exist in, like, a… just from my own experience, a deficit, medical model. You know? You’re NOT doing this. You don’t do this well. And… that sucks. I mean, it does. I’m not gonna… can I say sucks? 

 

Lori: Yea, it does suck! 

Sam: Yea, and you go through school with a learning specialist who helps you do what you can’t do and it’s like you know… maybe if you go to a certain school, it’s like, so and so is behind, let’s take away their electives so they can catch up, you know? 

 

Lori: Ugh, that’s the worst! 

 

Sam: Yeah, so I think… and again, I’ve been on both sides of this. As an educator, I get it? Sometimes I’m like.. But they have to be able to write! But I also think like, god, it sucks to be told to do something you struggle with all day. So I realised, the goal really is to be strength based and talent focused, if you can figure out what someone is interested in and what they’re strong at, you can teach them what you want, you just have to do it in that way. Like, I’ve… when you ask people often what you need, they’re usually reciting things they’ve been told they struggle with? But they don’t always need, or want that. They wanna go… humans are dopamine chasers. We go where it feels good. We want love, safety, affection, and so if you say I have a social skills class… that’s not fun. But if you say hold on, I have a speech and debate class and I need you to pay attention because we need to ask questions but you also can’t interrupt until the person is done speaking. Oh okay, this is high stakes, I’m interested, you know? There’s just a difference, I think that if we flip the script and instead of this medical deficit model, like “you can’t pay attention” or “you can’t write”, instead, we can say “okay, when you’re doing this you’re in the zone, let’s get more of this in your life. What does that feel like?”, you know? Alright, now what are we gonna do with that? I think that that’s a more wholesome way to educate. 

 

Lori: Yeah, and it’s… people can’t see this but I can see your smile and it’s just… we can tell you’re so passionate about it and that’s how I’m sure the individuals you work with feel as well, when they’re in these situations where they can just “be them” and explore their passions and enjoy the experience rather than be stressed the entire time. 

 

Sam: I hope so. Yeah, that’s the goal. Being able to have a space, yeah, like someone was asking the other day, like “so what do you do?” and I was like “oh I have a virtual school where kids can be happy an hour a week” and I’ve gotten tired of explaining what I do so I’ve just said that and you know, they were like “oh that’s awesome!” 

 

Lori: haha yeah! 

 

Sam: We gotta speak in terms people understand. But you’re right, that’s the goal. And we all need that. I benefit from that and you know, I had that at home. I would struggle at school and then I would come home and my dad and mom will have records on and we’d have fire in the fireplace and we’d paint or like go outside and weld, you know. And I was just like, this is awesome! And that’s how I would feel good every day and refill me so I could go back to school and sit with a book… So that’s what I wanna do for people. 

 

Lori: Well, it reminds me so much of Dr. Ross Green’s work where he says kids do well if they can do well and if they’re not doing well, it’s because of unsolved problem or lagging skill, an you know, so many times, I have this conversations with teachers or administrators where they’re saying “well this kid won’t do this” or “they’re angry all the time” and I’m like.. Well, if you think of it this way, when I get in a situation where I’m not good at something, I’m miserable. And I’m not happy until I’ve kinda got the system down and I can figure, you know, I’ve figured it out. But so many of our students are put in this position every single day and then like, middle school, high school, it’s every single class that they take. And they might have one class that they enjoy and that’s the only time that you see them flourishing, and the rest of the time, they’re just in this space. Existing. 

 

Sam: No, yeah! There’s this guy, Dr. Rick Orenchuk, he was one of my professors, and I interviewed him, I have a little show that I do once a month called Illuminating Interviews where I bring in, kinda like what you do, bringing in sometimes students or alumni or specialists or parents and ask different questions about twice exceptionality and life and he, I was talking about strength based education and he said “the best way to put it is taking a creative writer and making them work at the DMV all day”. They don’t thrive there, and that’s what we’re doing a lot with schools is we’re just taking someone and putting them in an environment where they’re just struggling and asking them to do things that just don’t align with their strengths and saying “why aren’t you doing this”. 

 

Lori: You’re so smart! That’s what they always say. You’re so smart, it’s not that you can’t…. You know. But you can’t. Really. 

 

Sam: Yeah, yeah, exactly!! 

 

Lori: Yeah, exactly. So, I can’t remember if this is on the Child Nexis podcast or your article in 2E News or your blog… about the salt and pepper of meaningful learning for twice exceptional kids. Would you share what the salt and pepper are? 

 

Sam: Yeah, so that’s kind of what I was getting at with the X and Y axis. I always say, people are like “well, what makes the Young Scholars Academy unique?” and I have really quirky teachers and quirky kids and it works. The idea is that the salt and pepper are… students need two things. They need to look up at a neurodivergent mentor and they need to say “I took a very unconventional path and I’ve made it” and then look over and say “oh my goodness, this guy is obsessed with Roblox and he’s a chess genius and speedcuber and she’s a speed reader and he has tons of energy”, whatever they may be… and just be understood. I say the salt and pepper because those are the social elements of learning, you know, it’s important to remember this. The reason I use salt and pepper is because they’re foundational ingredients, um, and we have all the fancy stuff but these are the things that we often notice are missing the most. And you know, humans, one of my other favourite guests that came on my show, Dr.Lin Lin Go said humans are an emotional creature who think, not thinking creatures who emote. And so, social first. The affective filter and our frontal cortexes are emotional – if we’re unhappy, we’re not gonna take notes. If we’re sad, if we’re lonely, we’re not gonna be able to pay attention to the lecture. It may not be that there’s a problem with our executive functioning skills, it’s just that the affect isn’t there that… we’re sad, we’re upset, we’re lonely. 

 

So the two things that we really try to bake into each class is, you can see I’ve had a field day with this metaphor, baking and all… but well, clearly I don’t bake much… I don’t know if you put pepper in baking so I take that back… but um, I think you know, those are the two core ingredients. That we need to make sure our students feel they have a connection and that they have friends. Because a lot of them feel like they don’t, because there’s someone like me but older. And they can be understood. 

 

Lori: That’s… yeah. I don’t need to say anything else, you’ve said it all. Very impressive though. So, what are you working on right now in the field that’s exciting to you? 

 

Sam: So, I’m working on… you know, we’re getting ready for the fall right now so our courses are gonna launch on the 15th of August and we’re just really kinda scrambling to put together really amazing courses this year, so that’s been the main thing that I’m working on. 

 

But I’m really dreaming up some big things – actually this would be kind of my first time I’ve shared sort of speak, but I wanna create a space where students can get everything that we offer in our classes and then everything else that they get, excuse me, in a school. So the thing I think is missing from online education is a lot of the hallway, out of the class stuff. So really working on creating a space where people can come together and do the things they don’t do in class, like have a space to interact. Have a space for office hours drop ins. And also do kind of, like, the electives? Create like a virtual robotics programme, um, have a space where students can show & tell, like a museum night or a student showcase, so really working on hitting a lot of needs for families who do again, feel isolated. We do have students in a bunch of… we’re still very small. Actually, someone told me we were the best kept secret, and I was like “I don’t wanna be that!” haha but um yeah, trying to meet a lot of those needs that aren’t being met. Sort of outside the classroom but school needs, still? And create a space for that. 

 

And then the other thing is just bringing more awareness to twice exceptionality because I think a lot of people think in a very binary way, like you’re either gifted or learning disabled? And bringing more awareness that in all reality, a lot of people are I think both, at the same time, all the time? 

 

Lori: Right…

 

Sam: If that makes sense? 

 

Lori: Absolutely. Yes. 

 

Sam: One of my other favourite people, Dr.Susan Baum, she was one of the first people to ever talk about twice exceptionality, and she wrote a book called “To Be Gifted and Learning Disabled”, before there even was a term for twice exceptional. And she uses colour to describe it. So she says like, there’s yellow and blue which can represent like your strength area or gift, and your difference or struggle, and then they combine and make green. And the student is always green. They’re always both of the things. And that’s important to keep in mind, that’s actually where my logo came from. Blue border with a yellow border, and the circle in the border that says Young Scholars Academy, is green. 

 

Lori: Ahhhh gotcha! That makes sense – another great visual. 

 

Sam: I’m clearly a visual.. I’ve got so many sticky notes.

 

Lori: Ahaha so am I. 

 

Sam: Sticky notes in here would make you scared, Lori.  

 

Lori: Alright, well, if parents want to learn more about what you’re doing, where can they go to find that information? 

 

Sam: Yes so, the best place to go is youngscholarsacademy.org and that would be the number 1 place to go. 

 

Lori: And we’ll have that in our shownotes. 

Sam: Thank you! We have a Facebook too, which is YSA Enrichment, but the best place is our site. If you wanna hop on our mailing list, I like, pre-release stuff. Last week, we had Seth Parlor on, one of the executive dysfunction, if anyone hasn’t heard of him, he’s amazing, you should check him out, he’s very hard to get a hold of… and um, he came and spoke live to our audience so there’s a lot of benefits of being a part of Young Scholars. And we also do monthly wine nights, we just get parents together and just share what’s working and what’s not, and it’s a virtual event, obviously, everything we do is 100% virtual, but then we also release, you know, resources and then create enrollment for our classes. Because classes are all capped at 6-8 students so they’re very intimate and they often fill out quickly. So you know, being on the list is great because you get that kind of information as well. 

 

Lori: Sure. Yeah. And wine night!  

 

Sam: Yeah, who doesn’t want that, right?! We’ve got people from all over and you never know where it’s gonna go. Some nights it’s tears, other nights it’s laughs and some nights it’s curiosity. It’s great. 

 

Lori: Well, I know as a parent of a man with autism, having a community of support is so essential, just having others who understand where you are and what you’ve been through. So I’m sure they love it. 

 

Sam: I think… you’d probably better answer that last question than I did. I think that’s what I’m going for, is community. Community for students and community for parents. I probably could’ve decreased a lot of airtime if I just said that… 

 

Lori: haha no, you know, it’s all about that wine! I keep coming back to that. I know it’s only 8 in the morning but…

 

Sam: It’s 5 o’clock somewhere… and it’s Friday! So two reasons. And I hope you’ll join us at the next wine night. 

 

Lori: That would be fun. Well, thanks so much, Sam! I really appreciate you spending some time with us today. 

 

Sam: This is awesome, Lori, and thank you and thank you to your audience and thank you for curating this space because this is… your show, your energy, I mean, again, you radiate this kind of warmth and acceptance and uh, you have this incredible demeanor about you so thanks for letting me hang out with you and thank you for creating such an important space for your community. 

 

Lori: oh my gosh, I’m blushing! Thank you. 

 

Sam: Well, it’s what you said. It’s community. And it’s amazing! And this kind of work is really amazing and if I connect with one person and help one family and you did that, then that’s on you because you took the time to do this.

 

Lori: Ahahah thank you! 

 

Sam: Sorry if that was too intense, my emotions run high in the morning! 

 

Lori: No, it was amazing. Thank you! 

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #63 Dysgraphia Defined

#63 Dysgraphia Defined

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Cheri Dotterer all about Dysgraphia. Cheri is an international speaker, author, and consultant who trains adults to shift their mindsets about struggling writers to strengthen the social-emotional well-being of people with dysgraphia so they can fully engage in life activities and unleash their potential to change their future and other generations through the written word. She is an occupational therapist, adjunct instructor, and author of Handwriting Brain Body DisConnect. Lori and Cheri discuss signs and symptoms of dysgraphia in our students, the different types of dysgraphia, and how we can support them in our classrooms.

Bio

Cheri is an international speaker, author, and consultant who trains adults to shift their mindsets about struggling writers to strengthen the social-emotional well-being of people with dysgraphia so they can fully engage in life activities and unleash their potential to change their future and other generations through the written word. She is an occupational therapist, adjunct instructor, and author of Handwriting Brain Body DisConnect. She lives with her husband of 31 years. They have two adult children. 

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hello listeners. Today, I speak with Cheri Dotterer, who is an international speaker, author, and consultant who trains adults to shift their mindsets about struggling writers and to strengthen the social emotional wellbeing of people with dysgraphia so they can fully engage in life activities and unleash their potential to change their future and other generations through the written world – word, excuse me. She’s an occupational therapist, adjunct instructor, and author of Handwriting Brain Body Disconnect. So Cheri and I today, we talk about our students and what we see as signs or symptoms of dysgraphia. We talk about the types of dysgraphia and how we can best support them. So sit back, relax, and enjoy. And now, onto the show. 

Hi Cheri and welcome to the podcast. 

Cheri: Hey, it’s great to be here! It’s wonderful to meet you face to face, even though it’s virtual. 

Lori: *laughs* yes. Our lives these days… So, I am really excited to speak to you today. As a long-time learning support teacher, I had many students throughout the years who had dysgraphia and I understand this is your passion and area of expertise. 

Cheri: Yes. It all started when I had, my daughter come to me and go “Mom, I can’t spell this word” which started this bandwagon, she was in upper elementary, grades where you struggled with spelling which happens to this day. Even though she’s in a honors programme in grad school. And then, as, working as an occupational therapist, I get kids who can’t read but also have the problem of writing and I’m like “where is this dichotomy of a child who can read and have trouble with writing, and a child who can’t read at all”… and obviously, that one is a little bit clearer to understand, but the one I was trying to really figure out was that child that can read and not be able to write. What is going on with that? And what I discovered over time is, it’s all about neurology. 

Lori: Well yeah! Great. So let’s get to the basics. What is dysgraphia? What’s it mean? 

Cheri: So, I’m gonna go to the core of the matter. And that is in the DSM5. THe DSM5 says that dysgraphia is grammar, punctuation, capitalization, sentence structure, paragraph organization, clarity, spelling, and then they have it separated into four different categories. And in the supplemental categories, it says there is an activity demand to exceeding the students’ capacity and that it interferes with the activities of daily living or as we, in the world of OT calls them, ADLs. 

Lori: Right. Actually, so that was something I learned from reading your information on your website, is that there are different types of dysgraphia. Which isn’t something I’d really thought about before but obviously it makes complete sense. So, can you tell us more about those types? 

Cheri: Sure, I will. But before I do that, I also want to clarify what dysgraphia is not, because this is where we really run into an aha moment, when we’re really thinking about what dysgraphia is. And what the DSM5 says that dysgraphia is not is intellectual disability, visual auditory disability, mental health disorders, neurological disorders, psychological adversity. And then they add some qualifiers for education – lack of proficiency in language skills and inadequate instruction. So that brings us to what… when you think about it, you know, a lot of these kids that really can read have ADHD. Many students with autism that are those high-functioning autism kids, they are gifted and they can exceedingly read, excuse me, way above grade level. And I was like. Huh. Another part that was really frustrating me is those kids that were on the borderline and just could not get support. You know, those, that bell curve says you’re at an 86 or 87? Well then you don’t qualify… and I’m like but they’re struggling! What can I do?! 

Lori: Right. 

Cheri: So I really was delving into those pieces of how can I help these kids that are on the borderline that are brilliant but are struggling. And I found the International Dyslexia Association and they basically have 3 definitions. One is visual spatial, one is motor, and the other one is dyslexic dysgraphia. And dyslexic dysgraphia has nothing to do with dyslexia, and I was like “I don’t understand this. This isn’t making sense”. So I kept delving and kept delving and delving, and I had this odd aha moment when I went back to my roots as neurological occupational therapist, I’ve studied sensory processing disorders my entire career. And I went, it’s all about the sensory motor process! So let’s go back and figure out how to help and manage all these kids because I kept getting “well, they know how to form their letters” and “they don’t have to worry about it anymore” but there’s so much more to putting words and sentences and paragraphs on paper. I knew in my heart I could help more kids. So I really delved into it and I discovered that there are 3 parts to writing. 

And that is biomechanical, language, and cognitive. That biomechanical level is where the sensory motor cycle begins. And that’s visual spatial, motor, and I also include memory there because if you don’t have the memory support, you are not gonna do anything with the visual spatial and motor. You need that memory piece. Then if we add that second layer, that language layer, that’s where we form words and sentences. And that top layer is cognitive and that is where we create paragraphs, whether they’re technical, they’re fiction or nonfiction, they’re expository, they’re narrative, that’s the ultimate goal is that we can get to that level and be creative and create curiosity with what we’re putting on paper. But we need to start at that foundation and that foundation is where I spend a lot of, still, a lot of my time in my education process. But I still have interventions that can help the language at levels of dysgraphia. 

Lori: Oh wow. So I had never thought of it being sensory motor related before. So thank you for explaining that. I live in that world quite a bit myself just working with so many students on the spectrum, on the autism spectrum, so can you share maybe one support that you might have for this sensory motor process? 

Cheri: Sure. As a matter of fact, I’m doing a training, a professional development training on this tonight, and that is the use of extension. Extension is a category of our body movements that we don’t even think about when think about writing. When we go to write, we sit down on a chair at a desk, put our pencil in the hand that we write with, in my case it’s my left hand, I put my right hand on the paper, I turn the paper the way I want it to be placed and then I start writing. And then you can see what my spelling and my legibility goes out the window because I also suffer from some level of language and cognitive dysgraphia. As do, does my speech sometimes, I got a little bit of praxia going on. But when I look at how to help these kids, what happens when these kids are struggling with writing? They slump on their desks, right? They’re falling off of their chairs, and all those motor components and I went, well, how are we going to compensate for that? We need to extend them. 

So one of the activities that I was looking at was what creates full body extension. SO think about it. What is going to create your entire body to be in an extensive position. 

Lori: Are you asking me? 

Cheri: I am! 

Lori: *laughs* 

Cheri: I am. What do you think, before we answer the question? 

Lori: Well, I mean… let’s see…

Cheri: I’m putting you on the spot, sorry! 

Lori: Standing? 

Cheri: Standing. Okay, that’s part of it but standing with your arms extended, so when you think about that, think a handstand, right? Okay, so, how was I going to create a handstand and not create an avalanche of students along the wall. Because can you imagine 30 students doing a handstand along the wall that have coordination issues? That could be a real comical adventure. So I was like, so what can we do? We still need to put their arms over their heads, and we need to have our hands in extension as well so we need to bring our wrist back as far as we can because then another piece of this extension puzzle is kids have trouble extending their wrist and you need to extend your wrist so that you can write ettef… effectively. Kids that don’t bring their wrist back enough have their thumbs wrapped around and touching their index finger with it. And it’s not supposed to be there. It’s supposed to be staying on the pencil. So how do we create this stature of a handstand but with your feet on the floor. So I went, okay… well. Hmmm. So thinking it through, I went, how about a book. A real heavy book on your hands. And then I was like, now we gotta do something with it while the kids are in this position. We can’t just make them static. 

Lori: Right. 

Cheri: Walk on their toes. Walk on their heels. Walk on their toes. Walk on their heels. And I’ve had several people get back to me who have tried this. One third grade teacher got back to me and said “I felt like I was watching PacMan while I saw the whole class do it. But the two kids I was thinking of when you suggested this activity to me were the two kids who wrote the best they’d ever written, that day.” 

Lori: Wow, that’s so interesting. 

Cheri: And she has used this idea ever since in the classroom periodically. So that got me thinking, what activities can I do  to help facilitate extension and I guess the best example I have to support is yoga poses. So I’m gonna actually be doing a training tonight on yoga poses. Now, I know everyone is going to be missing it who’s listening to this podcast because it comes out after the fact, but if you join my community, I will eventually have a replay on there that you can get continuing credits. So don’t think that just because I’m talking about something that’s happening tonight, there is always going to be replays available. 

Lori: Cool. I think that’s an amazing idea and I think many of us teachers who work with individuals with dysgraphia do a lot of these things without really knowing why we’re doing it. We know it’s good for them, it’s just inherent in our teaching practices that we add in some of these things but it’s so nice to know the background of why, why it can be helpful. So, thank you. That’s interesting. You mentioned slumping, what are some other signs that we as teachers or parents should be looking for? 

Cheri: So if we take like one thing out of each of the six areas, we’re looking at visual spatial. Visual spatial really is recognition, pattern recognition, letter recognition, shape recognition. There is a website called “Which One Doesn’t Belong” [wodb.ca] it has this multitude of different geometric shapes that you can use and one of the things I like to do, and that brings us over to memory, and that is I like to get the child’s perspective. Because if we’re not understanding what the child is thinking, we’re not gonna be able to access their memory so that we can reprogramme it. So I’ll ask them, what do you see and what do you notice, and it creates this discussion, so I’m bringing it up to the second and the third level and that is, I will record that conversation on my phone. Yes, I erase them afterwards but I will record that conversation on my phone and then I’m looking at what words did they use that they might not know how to spell? What sentence can we create out of the conversation we just had. So I make it purposeful by creating a conversation. 

So there’s three different kinds of of, response. As I’m asking them to write, am I asking them to copy? Am I asking them to respond to the dictation? So are they listening to the playback and are they writing the words down without having it be seen in front of them? Or are they listening to the entire transcript audio file and are they generating a new sentence from the conversation? So there’s three levels of copy, dictation, and self generation, that we take a look at and as I’m doing my documentation, I utilize which one they’ve used in the process of what do you see, what do you notice. There’s also two other questions I ask when I think about memory and that is what questions can you come up with. And how does it make you feel. Because that’s also getting their perspective because one of the things that’s happening, and I’m going to knock schools down a little bit, it’s taking curiosity out of our kids. 

Lori: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cheri: Because we said you need to do this, you need to do this, and we have this prescription in front of them that they have to follow and they’re not allowed to ask questions, they’re not allowed to be curious, they’re not allowed to be creative. It’s almost like you hit kindergarten and you have to say bye bye to those features when we need to nurture them. Because if you don’t use it, you’re gonna lose it. Just like doing burpees, if you don’t do them, you’re gonna degress because burpees are the hard ones, right? 

Lori: They’re the worst. 

Cheri: So, looking at all those layers, I started the visual spatial, I add the memory which I gave you the extension idea, I talk about memory, and I incorporate the recording pieces and as I am working on words, sentences, and paragraphs. The other thing I do is a lot of colour coding. So we’ll do some parts of speech color coding and things like that and this is coming from a girl who has no idea what parts of speech look like on paper. I know a verb is a verb, it’s an action. I know a noun is a place, person or a thing. What it looks like on paper and then we get into participles and all that, uh uh. It ain’t happening. 

Lori: *laughs*. Cool, so you color code those and…

Cheri: I do my best. 

Lori: Yeah. 

Cheri: Talk to a lot of teachers, so I have a really good friend who’s an English teacher and I’m going ok, help me out. This is the one I need to color code. What am I doing with this one this week? 

Lori: Right. Cool. So you gave us some signs for visual spatial and you mentioned, you don’t have to name them all, but can you name a few more signs? 

Cheri: Oh yeah, I guess I kind of forgot to talk about the signs, I mentioned some interventions…

Lori: Oh no no no, it’s great, we need them! 

Cheri: So with memory, it’s…. I can’t remember. With spelling, it could be a phonetic speller that just can’t move to the next level. With somebody with sentence, it’s they don’t understand syntax. They may not have punctuation and capitalization as a part of their repertoire. They just don’t understand it. And if they can’t understand those things, they’re not going to be able to create a paragraph. 

Lori: Yeah. No, that’s really helpful. I’m thinking of the memory piece. He was in middle school and he wrote… it was about 2 sentences and it was supposed to be a 3 page story or something so I just asked him what was going on and he said “you know, I have this great idea in my head and I can’t… when I go to write them down, I can’t remember what I was going to say” so I sat with him and had him tell me his story and I kind of brain framed it out or put it in a graphic organizer of some sort. And afterwards, he wrote a 3 page paper. It was just those… little triggers, those memory triggers were there for him. So that, I’m… I’m going back to that because I hadn’t really made that connection of dysgraphia being the memory piece. So thank you. 

Cheri: You’re welcome, you’re welcome. But it’s a real big component of it. I think it’s the biggest component and we don’t realise it. But if kids aren’t able to recognize letters and retain that information, how are they going to move forward? 

So the other thing that’s happening neurologically from a memory standpoint is every moment of the day has a file, in your limbic system, which is the center part of your brain. Every memory has an emotion that goes with it. So if you’ve got this… “I can’t do this” and you get that negativity going on, that memory is going to be filed away with an emotion that is negative. The big piece of dysgraphia is breaking the negative component. Because it’s just a barrier to access. It is a developmental delay. It is something that with time and compensatory strategies and techniques and technologies that you can be a basic writer. And if you practice, you can even be an author that’s published. Which is where I ended up. Being a published author because I was determined to overcome this barrier. 

Lori: *laughs*  now, how… oh, go on. 

Cheri: Now that being said, if there is a neurological condition that is associated with it like ADHD or autism, or CP or something else. That’s gonna supercede the dysgraphia piece and that could be the barrier to help them get through. But our whole mission is to overcome the barrier. 

Lori: Yep. How many times in your experience have you had a professionals or teachers describe a student who is lazy rather than actually dysgraphic? 

Cheri: Did you read my website? 

Lori: No, but that’s my experience so… but in thinking about your “slumping on the desk” and those types of signs which teachers or professionals might look at that and say “well, they’re just lazy”. 

Cheri: So one of my big mantras is “no child is lazy”

Lori: Yeah, mine too! 

Cheri: Every child goes to school with the expectation of meeting whatever the adult wants them to do. We, as the OTs, the teachers, the speech therapists, the paraprofessionals, the music teachers, the art teachers, the PhysEd teachers… we need to look at that child as a whole being and almost be this… detective that’s looking for that nuance that’s preventing the success from happening. So I tell my clients that they’re kings and queens and that they’re raising new kings and queens and I don’t mean monarchs. I mean that they’re being the best leaders of themselves that they can be. Be a leader. 

Lori: Be a leader. 

Cheri: And share how to be a leader. 

Lori: Well, you alluded to it but you’ve written a book called Handwriting, Body, Brain Disconnect. Tell us a little bit about that. 

Cheri: So feeling defeated, many years ago, actually considering suicide. And I was like… I need my purpose. I need to be successful at something. I need to be finished because one of the things I would do is start something and never finish. I needed to… so this determination just took over. And I was like “okay, I need to figure out what this dysgraphia is. I need to figure out how to help these kids”. So it started out as “yeah, I want to write a book” and “yeah I want to figure out what this dysgraphia is” and I kind of started meshing all of my research together and lo and behold, it did become a book. What it has done is it’s launched several more opportunities. I have now contributed to a textbook, with the Chinese University of Hong Kong. So being said that this is an Asian based conference – I’m not sure when it’s coming out, it’s still in the editing process and everything has to be done and edited and finished by December, I believe it is. 

Number two is, I’ve collaborated with a math teacher and we’ve been looking at the visual motor and memory pieces that are seen with math tasks and how that is also just a barrier to success. Then it is taken me on another path where another part of my passion is historical biblical stories and I have found that there is a book in the bible and one of the people in the book it’s not mentioned in the bible, so it’s not Jonathan, has a disability. A genetic disability that they have found because they did DNA testing on his remains. And the story was near and dear to my heart. And I’m writing a historical fiction, I was going to say non-fiction but that doesn’t make sense… A historical fiction book on this character in the story from the bible and it’s just changing my image of what it means. And that is also part of the reason why I say kings and queens because it is a story about the book of Esther. One of the characters in that book had a learning disability. 

Lori: Cool. Very impressive. So this is just the beginning of our learning from you, Cheri. You will be presenting at our virtual conference coming up here in December. Can you give us a sneak peek into what you’ll be sharing with us? 

Cheri: The title of my presentation is “Taking the Mask Off Dysgraphia”. We’re going to look at what does it look like from the child’s perspective, what does it look like from a teacher’s perspective, and we’re going to try to take them apart and really look at the true identity of the child. 

Lori: Wow. Can’t wait. So, the thing we haven’t announced yet but we will be soon, for SENIA members, for our official members that are a part of our Mighty Networks group and those who have signed up for our virtual conference, so they had to have done both, you all, you will be invited to attend the recording of Cheri’s session. So our members can come and watch your recording. This event will be live on October 26th at 7:30am, that’s Pacific Standard Time. Just to clarify, you should be a member of SENIA and signed up for the virtual conference in order to attend. I’m going to add the link to the shownotes so you can sign up and be part of Cheri’s presentation. So I’m really excited about this, we haven’t done this before. We’ve always done pre-recorded videos only. So Cheri, you’re one of our first live speakers. It’s gonna be good!

 

Cheri: So that blows my mind. Yeah. It blows my mind that this person who is from a very small rural town outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Allentown Pennsylvania, has people coming to me from all over the globe and listening to things that I have to say. So that blows my mind, for one thing. The other thing that blows my mind is that the people that are reaching out, like you, Lori, to help facilitate and spread this word that is really near and dear to my heart, and that is how to help kids who are struggling and getting the support that they need. And one of the other conferences that I’m going to be doing around the same time in October is the Morton Gill conference in Canada. So if you want to see that as well, look for that information. I have no idea even how to share that information. 

Lori: Haha, I could put it in the shownotes. That’s fine. Well, thank you Cheri, I really appreciate the time you took to share with us today. I learnt so much! 

Cheri: Lori, it was wonderful to meet you. Thank you. It blows my mind every day that people are out there and it just proves to me that we are not alone. So, be kings and queens. And remember, we are put here for a reason.

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

 

#64 IDD and Me: I Am Confident & Positive

Show #64 IDD and Me: I Am Confident & Positive

Today Lori Boll speaks with Aidan and Lisa Sos. Aidan and Lisa first met Lori on a playground in Shanghai, China when they had just been told that Aidan could no longer attend the international school he was attending due to his Intellectual Developmental Disability (IDD). So, he ended up attending a small school for individuals with special needs that Lori was directing at the time. In the podcast, Lori, Aidan, and Lisa speak about Aidan’s experiences growing up with IDD, his joys, his struggles, and successes. Stay tuned till the end when Aidan shares some incredibly exciting news!

Bio

Aidan: I was in Ms. Lori’s class in Shanghai. I am intellectually disabled and am about to enter UCLA Pathways. I’m 19, confident and positive.

Lisa is a stay at home mother of two children; both young adults. Lisa and Aidan are currently creating their own podcast to share their journey through Aidan’s school career and advocating for him.

Connect

Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hello listeners. Today’s show is a bit different than other shows. For one, I’m interviewing two people and another is, well, we want to start hearing more voices of the people who we actually support. So people with disabilities. Today I speak with Aidan and Lisa Sos. And I met them about 13 years ago in Shanghai, China, when Aidan was asked to leave the school he was attending. Aidan has been diagnosed with an intellectual developmental disability and he was unable to keep attending that international school so he came to the school that I was working at for students with special needs. Today’s conversation, we talk about Aidan’s joys and struggles growing up with this intellectual delay, we talk about his schooling, we talk about his goals he has set for himself and achieved. And we talk about something really exciting that is happening in Aidan’s life right now. So I’m excited for you to hear our converstaion and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. And now, onto the show. 

Hello Lisa and Aidan and welcome to the podcast! 

Lisa: Hello. 

Lori: Well, I’ve known you two for something like 13 years or so, I think? 

Lisa: Yeah yeah

Lori: And just a few weeks ago, you reached out to me to tell me some very exciting news. But let’s hold off on that news for now and go back to when we first met. So Lisa, can you share what was happening at that time with Aidan and his schooling? 

Lisa: Yeah. So we went to China knowing that Aidan had delays, like learning… we didn’t have any diagnosis yet but everyone said go to China, have him screened… we know in the special education world that as much as you can do for inclusion, the better, so that’s the stance we always took. We went to China, enrolled him in Concordia, had him screened. So I forget her name, the principal, the head of school at the time, screened Aidan for pre-school. He did fine. She accepted him, she took him into the school, he matched all the colours, he drew a cross sign, he drew… he found the people. You know, all those standards? 

Lori: Right. 

Lisa: And he was doing fine. YOu know, it was a warm environment, but academically, he was probably struggling and by the time, so. We had a review after the first year of pre-school because he was Kindergarten age and that’s when she said he can’t go to kindergarten here. We were like “oh. Okay”. But they were like “but he can go to pre-school again”. And we were like “oh, okay”. So our daughter who is neurotypical but young and we struggled with her – should we send her, should we not… so anyway, in our heads, we were like let’s let him go through pre-school again. He’s got friends who are younger, you know, just help him in the long run. So we did that. We did two years at Concordia. And then she said “no, he’s not ready for kindergarten. He can stay here again for preschool, but he’s not going to kindegarten” and we were like “again?” 

Lori: 3 years of pre-school… 

Lisa: Yeah, Sean and I were like.. He’s already old? You know what I mean? He was kind of old. So I actually left that meeting, when I left that meeting, I went to the playground, because Bella was at Concordia hanging out with her friends and doing her thing, and I was kinda sad. I was like, “what are we going to do?” I had no diea what our options even were out there in Shanghai, and there you were, with Braden. So that’s kind of… where we were. What do we do? Where are we going? What are we going to do? 

Lori: Right. 

Lisa: And the rest is history! 

Lori: Yeah, well, and so we should say just in case there’s anyone listening to this podcast that, you know, traditionally, most schools in China did not accept individuals with any type of intellectual disability or learning need and so uh, many parents were in the same situation as you were, where they would start a school and eventually be, your child would be asked to leave the school. 

Lisa: Yea, exactly. Yes. We met so many parents that were like. You know, I mean, luckily, we were like “do we go home?” like what do we do. But you know, faith and god’s good grace led us to you. 

Lori: Thanks. But so, that’s what happened. We met on the playground and I happened to be working at school for kids with special needs in Shanghai, China, and Aidan ended up coming there. So we got lucky because it was quite a joyful experience for us, Aidan. 

Lisa: Yeah, we were lucky. I tell him about that because it was an hour away commute in the morning. I’d tell him what a trooper he was. He never complains, I mean, all those kids. We had those kids, that just got on the van and came to school every single day with a smile on his face. So that’s a lot of credit to him and to you guys at the school that he wanted to go. 

Lori: Well it was super fun having him. Aidan, Aidan has no memory of me, as we discovered a few weeks ago but. BUT, I certain remember you, Aidan. So, what, eventually Aidan was diagnosed with an intellectual disability. Aidan, what has that meant for you? 

Aidan: Well, I really don’t mind it. I get along with people fine, I make jokes, I, you know, I make everyone feel comfortable when we’re having a great time. You know, I give good feedback and good honest, honesty, and positivity and yeah. 

Lisa: Do you think it’s been… I think it’s been kind of a journey of self-awareness, right? Like, you kind of… we read all the books. Eventually they’re going to have questions and your child was going to wonder, why are they different, why are they in this classroom.. And because we’ve moved all over the place, we’ve had different conversations because of different… you know, basically special education is different in every state and because we grew up in differneet states, we’ve had conversations based on that. So I think Aidan is pretty self possessed and confident but he’s, you know, aware, let’s just say.

Lori: Sure, sure. Well, Aidan, I love what you said about your positivity and how you make everyone feel good because that’s exactly what I remember about you. You were only 6 years old and you were always so positive and friendly and everyone loved you and I’m glad you remained that positive wonderful guy. 

Lisa: Me too, me too. And it’s always funny when he’s like, typical bratty teenager? I mean, I’m always grateful that he’s positive and funny and outgoing but I’m also happy when he’s neurotypical and mean to me. 

Lori: Yeah, yea, exactly! Aidan, can you tell us a bit about how school was for you growing up? 

Aidan: I think it was good, then when I went to middle school and high school, it was uh, very very hard, like I wasn’t, you know, maturing but now I am and as a 19 year old, I feel great and awesome. 

Lisa: Yea, was it hard for you, was school hard for you? 

Aidan: Uh, yeah, from time to time, in middle school…

Lori: Yeah. I imagine. When you were in middle school and high school, what type of classes were you in? 

Aidan: Lots of PE, lots of reading and writing… uh… 

Lisa: Art. 

Aidan: Yeah, art. Ceramics. 

Lori: Lisa, was he in uh, any type of programme for…? 

Lisa: Yea, yes, he was in a special ed class. So we didn’t know at the time, when we moved to Wisconsin, that was a great system. And you know, you just don’t know. You don’t know when you come back from being overseas what you’re gonna get. Like, we were so stressed out, we knew what we wanted and Aidan and I visited all these schools and didn’t have a house yet and I was like “where should we buy, where should we go…” because we knew that the public system was the best for him and that’s if we could find a school that was like the one he was at in Shanghai, but we couldn’t. But we did hire a special education consultant, she was more like a resource… she didn’t… I don’t feel like she helped that much, I feel like Aidan and I did it on our own, but I think about that. 

So we moved to California, we moved from Wisconsin to California, when Aidan was in middle school and it was kinda like going from a Cadillac to a Hyundai. Which was, at the time, wehad no idea. So Wisconsin was like, everyone was in the same classroom and everyone was pulled out for directions, so whether you were gifted or an advanced reader or gifted in math, you were pulled out. And then for special education, you were also pulled out. And he had such good friends and we didn’t know that. And then coming to California, it’s totally different. It’s like, “we’re gonna put you in this classroom and then we’ll put you in general education classes nd we’ll see how you do”. So it was kind of like, definitely going from one extreme to the other. I don’t think it was terrible but you know, it was not as like, what do you call that… it was not the least restrictive environment that we were in. 

Lori: Right, right. 

Lisa: So he was in the special ed class when we moved to California. 

Lori: Okay, that makes sense.

Lisa: Yea and when we went from Wisconsin to California, they were like “because he presents, kind of, typical, they met him and were like oh, just send him here and he’ll do fine! And then two months down the road, the teacher’s like, he’s really struggling, what’s going on? And it’s not like they didn’t have his IEP, we didn’t… you know what I mean? So then at that point, he went to special day class – he went to a school that had a special day class, which is what they call it there, I’m sure you knew that. 

Lori: I see. Yea, I knew that. So, Aidan. What are some of the goals you set for yourself growing up? 

Aidan: Uhhhh

Lisa: Growing up. 

Aidan: Being social. Ummm.

Lori: Achieved! 

Lisa: Yep. 

Lori: Well done. Why don’t you tell us about your, your athletic life? What kind of goal did ytou set for that? 

Aidan: Uh, I did track and field, then I did throwing my senior year, and I won State with my good friend Isaiah.

Lori: So you won the state championship in shot put? 

Aidan: Yep.

Lori: That is phenomenal. And California is a huge state! 

Lisa: I know! It’s a huge state! 

Lori: Yeah, that’s brilliant. Congratulations! 

Lisa: I remember because, we were going to Senior Valley, okay, so we’re going to Prez now. It’s been one thing after another. And you know, he’s always been confident, you know, like he tried out for soccer and he went out for, he was on the basketball team in 8th grade, so he’s always, he’s always tried. And in 9th grade, he was actually the manager, he didn’t make athletics here in Riverside, especially basketball with high expectations. So they have a lot of Track and Field stars and there’s Olympians, but he’s always been… and I’m grateful that he’s always been curious and confident and try, even if he doesn’t get it. So track and field was one of those sports that we just, grabbed on to. Thank goodness his teacher at the time was like “I really think you should try out for track and field, it’s still a team sport but not, you know, water polo?” and so yeah I think it was good. And I think his build is what told the coaches that he should probably start throwing? Because it’s interesting, you go to a track meet and you see all the throwers, they’re all shaped the same. They’re all kind of, upper body strength… you know what I mean? 

Lori: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: Not the typical runners, so it was good. It was exciting. 

Lori: That’s great. I’m so proud of you, Aidan. Well done. 

Aidan: Thank you! 

Lisa: Yea, we just got his ring. 

Lori: Oh, nice! 

Lisa: I know! 

Lori: So, how about some struggles? Did you ever feel frustrated or struggle or have issues with people not treating you well, Aidan? 

Aidan: Uh, yeah, I would say that there are some struggles. 

Lisa: Like what? 

Aidan: Well, for one, I didn’t really know how to deal when you get a girlfriend so I was kinda feeling that issue, wonder if I should do this or that. But now I changed now and I have grown up, been good, been responsible, going to a good school, like yea, I feel good. 

Lisa: He, um, so he definitely, I’m just gonna chime in. So he’s always been pretty accepting of himself and the school that I chose for him for high school is very prominent with… they have a programme called PALSS, Peers Always Learning Side by Side, and so it’s a club and the typical kids and students join the club and they’re there to support the special education students and it’s like an inclusion programme and so Aidan, I think, in some cases, he just really didn’t like that distinction. He would’ve rather just been a part of the school as opposed to the special education kids. There was a couple of times he came, I would pick him up from school and he’d say I hate it when people come up to me and are like Hi! Hi! Hi! And they’d just kinda look at him. And no fault to them, they’re just trying to be friendly, but he was totally put off by it and so I think some of that. And he also didn’t, he liked his classroom and he liked being there and he never complained about it until senior year, he had terrible senioritis… but one time they had a pep rally and all the special education students came out together and the whole school roared and it was awesome, but he was kind of like.. I don’t really want that distinction? 

Lori: mmm. Gotcha. 

Lisa: I think that was probably the hardest. But he really wants a girlfriend. That’s his big goal. 

Lori: Alright. Well, you know, so that leads me to the next question. So we talked about senioritis, graduating from high school which you’ve just done, so maybe in your next step, that’s where the girlfriend comes in. So now it’s time to tell us this exciting news Aidan! Where will you be going very soon? 

Aidan: UCLA. 

Lori: Get out of town! UCLA. Tell us more.

Aidan: Well, I am in the pathway programme at UCLA. I met with my roommate, I, you know, it was our very very first school and I love LA and feels like I’m going to do awesome. You know, meet new friends, and you know, get the, girlfriend… and probably be hanging out with the track and field guys and the coach. 

Lisa: So he met the, the shot put throwing coach at the qualifying meet in Senior Valley for state. So I think the coach was just there to see the town and recruit people and he got to meet him. So the Pathways Program, Aidan explained it pretty well, it’s Pathways, UCLA Pathways is independent learning support. And he’ll do internships, he’ll take classes and join clubs, he’ll be in… he’s not an UCLA student so he can’t be on the basketball team, not that we were headed that way, but you know, he’ll do like trivial stuff. So we’re excited. 

Lori: Well, he’s technically an UCLA student, right? Because UCLA Pathways is part of UCLA, right? It’s just unable to join that type of thing. 

Lisa: Yes, yes, it’s considered UCLA extension, not UCLA. I can’t remember the distinction they give but yeah. So it’s exciting. We applied to 4 schools and he was accepted to all 4 which is exciting, and the one we thought was a shoo-in was the hardest, UCLA was our first choice because of location. We went to Florida because John has family there and two of our siblings went to school there and it was a great program and probably our second choice. But then UCLA kinda last minute came in and accepted him. 

Lori: That’s great! And it seems like more and more of these programs are cropping up at universities. I know UC Davis opened one up last year….

Lisa: Yep, brand new. But yeah, UC Davis, we applied in Fresno, which is the Wayfinders Program, and CLE which is College of Learning Exceptions or something… what does the LE stand for, I can’t remember? 

Aidan: College Living Experience. 

Lisa: College Living Experience. So they, all over the country…

Lori: Well, that’s, that’s cool. I just think it’s great that there’s more and more opportunities out there. 

Lisa: Me too. And I think as a parent, you’re like, you know. Every year, what are we going to do? What’s he going to do? And then you get closer and closer and it kinda always fell on my shoulders and it was stressful. 

Lori: Yea, we’ve definitely been talking about a lot of positives today which is amazing. And we haven’t shared the stressful points, but maybe that’s for another podcast. But you do think it’s important to share your story and I think it’s important to hear it. Why do you want to share your story? 

Lisa: You know, I just think that there’s so many people, in particular, I just feel like we all have differences, right? And so what makes us successful, I think we have to, as a parent, I didn’t feel like I had a lot of support. I felt like I had to do a lot of things on my own, which is fine, as a parent you kind of.. You know grow up with your child knowing that and feeling that but it would be nice if there were more resources. Or even just people to talk to and advocate for kids. Or even like, I would’ve loved to even have a spreadsheet – where should I look for schools for him? 

Lori: Yeah! 

Lisa: You know, just something. 

Lori: And that resource doesn’t seem to be anywhere. 

Lisa: It isn’t! And I even was… I think it’s very typical to go through that school system and you know, they have post-high school education, usually until they’re a certain age, and I think there are a lot of times where as parents, we just kinda go through the system and we just kinda go where we’re directed and I’m not sure if that’s a good fit for him and I need to think of something else and I was very surprised that even his educators, his teachers that I adore, knew that there was another option other than here at Riverside, the post-high school program. Which I think is great, it’s fabulous if it’s a good fit, but for Aidan, it was like… that’s just like an extended high school and I’m not sure if he’s gonna get anything out of that. So I think even for educators, they don’t know. 

Lori: No, they don’t. You’re right. 

Lisa: And this teacher has said many times, I’m so thrilled, I’m so happy, that one of my students is going to a major university. And that’s so sad, I think she should have more students that go… you know, to major university. 

Lori: Well hopefully you’ve opened up her world and now she knows of schools that are out there. We talked about that, the resources not existing. But I think it probably does exist, it’s just… how do we find it, right? So, yes, keep telling your story. And how is it that you’re planning on telling your story? 

Lisa: So we started a podcast, Aidan and I. It’s still very much in the infant stage and we’re still just dabbling and learning but Aidan likes it. He’s liked, he likes the broadcasting part of it and it’s a fun thing for the two of us to learn together so the podcast I think, I’m not sure if I’ll be able to… I’ll still sit on the board until the officials are elected and then I’ll probably kind of phase out and because I don’t have a high school student anymore, and I’ll be it’ll be different high school parents and I would like to leave that. I would like to leave the legacy of Aidan, and where he’s going and what happens to him in the future and I’d like to be able to talk to him and document that. So I think the podcast is where we’re headed. 

Lori: Great! And do you have an address for that podcast? 

Aidan: neurodivergency pod!

Lisa: It’s neurodivergency, it’s on… 

Aidan: Apple Music and Spotify 

Lisa: Apple and Spotify. I’ll figure it out.

Lori: Yea, we’ll link it. 

Lisa: Yea it’s Neurodivergency. We have an Instagram, NeurodivergencyPod. We started talking about the word Neurodivergent, and I don’t know, neurodivergency is a word we made up but it’s actually a lot of Spotify playlist, like music, called neurodivergency and it’s interesting because I haven’t figured out who made these and… so I haven’t had the time to listen but yea. 

Lori: Well, Aidan, is there anything that we didn’t get to talk about today that you want to share with us? 

Aidan: Uh, no, thank you Lori! 

Lori: You’re very welcome. Well, I couldn’t have been more proud. I’m ready to burst into tears for you. So I cannot wait for an update on how you do at UCLA and if you get a girlfriend, all that good stuff. 

Lisa: According to him, he’s going to have many!

Lori: Well, probably! It’s college, right? 

Lisa: Yea, exactly! 

Lori: So I wish you the best of luck and please please keep in touch.

Lisa: We will, right? 

Aidan: Will do! Thank you again! 

Lisa: It was so good connecting! 

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #65 We’re Not Complete Without You

Show #65 We’re Not Complete Without You

In today’s podcast, host Lori Boll speaks with Joel Llaban Jr., the Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Justice of the International Schools Services (ISS). Joel and Lori discuss the important work ISS and other organizations are doing to ensure schools are inclusive in all areas from their hiring practices, to their mission statement, to their curriculum and how they should be living the words, “We’re not complete without you.

Bio

Joel Jr LLABAN | (siya, he, him) is the Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Justice of the International Schools Services (ISS). He is a learner and an international education leader who is committed to our collective work for the transformation of international education grounded on anti-racism and DEIJ. Prior to his current role, he was a Learning Specialist, Instructional Coach, and schoolwide DEIJ Lead at The International School of Kuala Lumpur.

Joel has been in education for 20 years. He worked at the International School of Brussels, International School of Beijing, and Cebu International School as a classroom teacher, department coordinator, and accreditation coordinator. He has led schoolwide initiatives in curriculum, assessment, professional development, innovation. Joel has been involved in accreditation as a team evaluator during team visits representing NEASC and CIS. He leads various professional learning for international schools and organizations.

Joel serves in the advisory role of the CIS Board Committee on Inclusion, Diversity, Equity & Anti Racism. He is also a member of the Editorial Team of The International Educator. Joel holds a Master of Education in International Education Administration from Endicott College in Massachusetts and a Certificate of International School Leadership from The Principals Training Center. He is a proud member of  AIELOC and Diversity Collaborative. He is a dog parent to Frida the poodle and Asgier the schnauzer.

Connect

Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hi everyone. Today I had the opportunity to speak to Joel Llaban, who is the first Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice at the International School Services, or ISS. He’s a learner and an international education leader committed to the our collective work for transformation of international education, grounded on anti-racism and DEIJ. Prior to his current role, he was a learning specialist, instructional coach, and schoolwide DEIJ lead at the International School of Kuala Lumpur. He has been an education expert for 20 years and has worked at several international schools all over the globe. Joel serves in the advisory role of the CIS board committee on diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-racism, and he’s a member of the editorial team of The International Educator and he is a proud member of AIELOC and Diversity Collaborative. We had a great discussion today and we talk so much so let’s just get right into it. And now, on to the show. Hi Joel, and welcome to the podcast.

Joel: Hi Joel and thank you for inviting me to be a part of this conversation today. It’s really an honor to be a part of the growing movement of inclusion, equity, justice, and diversity in international education, which SENIA has been one of the lead in this work in international education, so thank you for the invitation. 

Lori: Thank you for coming. We’re excited to talk to you today. So, Joel, you’ve been in education for 20 years, serving in various roles from classroom teacher to learning specialist, learning coach… Most recently, you were at the International School of Kuala Lumpur and were the DEIJ lead for the school. And now you’re working at International School Services, or ISS, as their Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice. So, can you tell me how and when you first got into this focus area of yours and what is your why for doing the work you’re doing? 

Joel: Yeah. As a person of color in international education, I think we’ve always been mindful that our place and positionality in primarily white institution and international education and I think we’ve been talking about it in the past around race and racism or perhaps we’re talking about it in sort of hushed tones in the past… Reallyu right now, how it started was the movement in international education got, sort of, louder and bolder, and in more pronounced after the murder of GEorge Floyd, where many of us started to ask challenging hard questions around the role of international education when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice, as well as how we’ve been complicit to this race system and systemic harm and the injustice that we perpetuate in internationall education. And I think that circles back to our WHY around… what is our responsibility in promoting equity and inclusion in our schools. As an international school educator, I think my why is that we need to ensure all of our kids can participate in our spaces without shutting or shaming any parts of who they are. And I think that is the why when it comes to this part. 

Lori: Yeah, well, thank you for doing the work you’re doing. It’s been a long time coming and it’s powerful to see what you all, your group, your groups, as you’re a part of several, have done to make this at the forefront of everyone’s minds. 

Joel: Yeah, we really value that piece, Lori, and I think you mentioned something about from group to groups, right? Because I think this work is the work of community, like all of us at different pockets of international school. When we’re mindful of who we are and the contributions that we have and how we can harness those strengths and dispositions and actions that we have. Whether you’re doing systemic work such as yourself with SENIA or at international educators in the classroom doing deep identity work, doing deep equity & inclusion work, I think all of us have been treated in many ways. So I don’t really see this as a singular pathway in DEIJ work. Or a single group or a single individual leading this work. I think all of us has the power, responsibility, and role in promoting DEIJ in our own community. 

Lori: I really like what you discussed about you know, you’re ensuring that all students are represented and all students are well, cared for for who they are and your focus, also, is on teachers and employees at the school and highlighting who you are as people of color or marginalized people. Can you tell us more about that? 

Joel: Yeah, I think the work of DEIJ sometimes there’s a perception sometimes that it is a siloed work, that here’s a DEIJ committee or a DEIJ focus or a DEIJ sort of area of strategic plan but really I believe that, and I think many of us believe that, DEIJ should underpin or underguard all of the work we have at school. So if we think about the different areas of priorities and focuses at school from mission and vision to leadership to governance, to curriculum, teaching and learning, operations, staff, faculty, and student well-being and child protection, they’re all interconnected. And each of those components within the school definitely has an impact and an implication on our beliefs and practices around DEIJ because what we believe, and it’s highlighted in our mission and vision, should trickle down into the curriculum and teaching and learning or to the diversity of staff, or how we lead equitable practices as principals and directors of learning. And also at the National Association of Elementary School Principals, has written one of their white papers that talks about having that meaningful lens around equity. Really asking ourselves, who is well served in our communities and at the same time, who is marginalized and harmed by practices and policies of our organization and systems. 

Lori: Wow. That’s impressive. What are some of the evolving learning and actions in our communities that are grounded on DEIJ? 

Joel: Yeah, there’s been a lot of conversations and listening circles and affinity groups and professional learning conferences that are happening in international education that’s centered on identity and power and positionalities, social oppression, race and racism, cultural responsive pedagogy in the classroom, developing or harnessing our capacity to lead DEIJ, among many others in our communities and I think what is currently defining or re-defined right now is that after 2 years of learning and professional learning and partnership, what we’re asking right now is that as a result of these learning, where will we sort of transfer these learning we have? What is the action we need to take systemically? And I think that is the question we have and we sort of designed and conceptualized the Learning to Action Institute at the International School Services, in collaboration with Association of International Educators and Leaders of Color, or AIELOC. And through this, we want to be able to see international educators and leaders in different places taking action as a result of their learning. And so now that we’ve learned from the provocations that are offered by our facilitators and learners, what happens next. How does it impact our community? What are those actions that are already being taken as a result of our learning? And that’s where sort of the trajectory of learning now in international education. How can we move beyond learning and listening circles into deep intentional action taking in our communities? 

Lori: So, speaking of systematic change, you mentioned earlier about hiring practices and making sure more people of color are represented in schools and the like. So, how do we re-define what schools should be looking for? 

Joel: Mmmm. Yeah, there’s seminal work that was done by Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop that talks about windows, mirrors, and sliding glass doors. It’s very much focused on the literacy forces that we have in our classrooms, right? The literacy forces, to me, it really, she talks about ensuring that our kids have mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors in our communities but at the same time, I also believe that the adults around in school are also mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors for our students because we are also vessels of stories, narratives, and identities that our children at school can learn from, reflect upon, and that they can see themselves in the adults around them. And so that is a challenge for international school recruiters to be able to ensure and ask themselves, do our kids see themselves in the adults around them? And so it’s re-defined diversity and we also need to ask ourselves, are we waiting for diverse candidates, so to speak, to apply or are we intentionally inviting them to say, hey, you are needed here. Because of your joy and genius, we need you here, and that we’re not complete without you. And I think that that’s a powerful shift that we need to really, sort of, re-define for international education. That intentional invitation to co-create with intentions in our communities. 

Lori: I love that – we’re not complete without you. That’s very powerful. *both laughs* So, let me just stop the podcast right there. That was amazing! So, what is… what anti-racist work is being pursued and facilitated by the work at ISS? 

Joel: For the past 2 years, even before I joined International School Services, Liz Duffy, our president and Dana Watts, has been, along with our senior staff, have been involved and engaged with AIELOC or they were co-creating with intentions in their communities and supporting us in their professional development, learning together. So I’ve seen ISS always at the forefront of coalising with communities of color in international education. So prior to me joining ISS, they’ve already had, sort of, beginning stages of anti-racism committee, but also, ISS has been one of the founders of the Diversity Collaborative, that was established years back. So when I joined ISS, they already had established anti-racism committee, which is an internal work within ISS, and so at the moment, myself and Liz Duffy are co-creating with intention, we’re co-creating this committee and different directors and our staff at Princeton and globally have been involved in it. There are people in this committee leading and facilitating these processes, and it’s grounded on some of the data that we’ve collected and some of the data we’ve asked, as well as really reflecting on the impact of our work at ISS and how can we take actions in relation to that impact and purpose. 

And externally, we also ask, now that we have this internal work, what can we do as well as an organization of communities and leaders with power positionalities and influences in international educators to lead and facilitate and promote DEIJ in our communities? And that is where we are conceptualizing the Learning to Action Institute, because we’re not only thinking about the ISS schools, the ISS owned, managed, and supported schools, but we’re also thinking about it as a global responsibility that we have. And so through that ISS Learning to Action Institute, we’ve collaborated with AIELOC because most of our facilitators, if not all, are members of the Association of International Educators and Leaders of Color through that partnership. We’re building capacity for leaders who take action within their communities and so these are the developing work on anti-racism, led by International School Services. 

In addition to that, we’re also thinking about the many different areas of focus. We started looking at an equity leadership continuum, and looking at the different areas of focus like I mentioned earlier, such as mission and vision, governance, leadership, curriculum, communities, student learning, and in refinding and re-defining our goals around this and the impact we have on these areas of focus, in both the committees. Learning to Action is a global work, and the internal work we have as well at ISS. 

Lori: Gotcha. You’ve mentioned AIELOC a few times. For people who aren’t aware of that group, how can, if, how can they join or how can they become a part of it? 

Joel: Yeah, it’s really an organization open to anyone who’s committed to doing the work of DEIJ and I think we, we have community visioning every month, we’ve got the AIELOC and Women of Color in ELT conference happening on the 12th and 13th of November. Signing up, there is a link for registration for membership at the AIELOC website. You’re more than welcome to participate and enjoy, that’ll open up access to a lot of AIELOC and partnership and collaboration. And through this work, a lot of affinity groups have been formed within the community. And also there’s organizational work around Aspiring Leaders of Color, that’s led by Kevin and Nadine Richards, who is our Director of Leadership Recruitment at ISS so that’s, there’s a really strong partnerships between organizations and communities. 

Lori: Right. Perfect. And I will put links to all of these on our show notes for our listeners as well. As you know, SENIA, at SENIA, inclusion is literally part of our name, Special Education Network and Inclusion Association. Our mission is to advocate for and provide resources for individuals with learning differences and disabilities. Well, what do you see as the intersectionality between your work and the individuals for whom we support? 

Joel: Yeah, individuals, people are made up of intersection of identities. Our stories, our narratives, our joy and genius, capacity, and abilities, are differences that make up who we are as human beings. And I think the challenge though that we have as educators and leaders in schools is to be able to see children in that totality, in that intersectionality of identity and not only in their abilities, their cognitive abilities, not only our physical ability, social emotional aspect of their identities, but also their racial identity and gender identity because often times in the trajectory of change in international education, there’s been a lot of focus on supporting our cognitive identities or learning differences and disabilities but also we have sort of avoided, if not denied, some conversations in the past around race and gender. And probably because we’re not, we did not want to see it yet in the past. And now though, we are braver, bolder, and we have reflected upon how complicit we are of the denial we have perpetuated, and I think we’re now braver and bolder in looking at it and saying hmm, how might we have missed the racial and gender aspect of a child’s identity and how can we pursue in supporting, acknowledging, and affirming race and gender alongside cognitive identities and cognitive abilities in international education, and in schooling in general and learning in general. 

Lori: Yeah, I agree with you. And SENIA is doing some major work now, just re-defining who we are and what inclusion means to us and so that is why we have so many speakers coming up at our conferences who reflect different areas of that inclusive work, right? And you are one of them. So we’re really excited that you’ll be joining us at our upcoming virtual conference. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’ll be presenting about? 

Joel: Yeah, as I mentioned to you earlier, Lori, I, we started this conversation many months ago around what can I share and what can I present and at some point, over the 3 months, probably pivoting a little bit based on conversations with different people, I’ve been reflecting on what might be beneficial for our community to learn together. And so as I begin to think about that, it’s really grounded on how can we harness our leadership dispositions to lead the work in our community. How can we become leaders in systems, in schools, in the classroom that is culturally responsive and sustaining and culturally affirming. Or as what Daniel Wickner, the founder of Identity Centered Learning, would say, as identity centered educators. And so, sort of really looking at what are some of those leadership dispositions that we can live by in our communities so that it will have an impact and influence on the lives of our children and the communities that we serve in international schools. 

Lori: Wow, it sounds amazing, and we have so much to learn from you so I’m really excited about your presentation and as a matter of fact, we also have Daniel Wickner coming to present so there you go! Well Joel, that’s really all we have time for today so thank you so much for your time and your commitment to your work. It’s really impressive and I’m proud to know you. 

Joel: Thank you Lori, the honor and pleasure is mine. And this is a powerful partnership that we all have as I mentioned earlier, it’s not really a singular work but it’s really the work of the community and so you’ve been part of that as well and you’ve been doing the intentional work at SENIA so really, at this last part, I invite everyone to take part and join any conferences, AIELOC, ISS, SENIA, and there’s so many other organizations that are supporting this work so to all the members and leaders of SENIA International, thank you for this opportunity to collaborate and learn with everyone. And Lori, thank you very much for this and I look forward to the Inclusion Revolution through SENIA. 

Lori: Yes, awesome! Thanks. Thanks Joel. 

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #66 Building a foundation for digital accessibility

Show #92 Building a foundation for digital accessibility

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Patrick (Paddy) McGrath, who is an international speaker, blogger, podcaster, and Head of Education Strategy at the Texthelp Group. Paddy shares how we can use digital tools to help our students better access our documents but emphasizes the importance of making the content accessible first and foremost. You’ll leave today’s podcast with an easy way to make your documents more accessible and with more understanding of Universal Design for Learning.

Bio

Patrick is an educator, international speaker, blogger, podcaster, Honorary Fellow at UU and Head of Education Strategy at the Texthelp Group – the world’s largest specialist assistive technology company. Patrick is passionate about ensuring that technology has a positive, meaningful and sustainable impact on teaching & learning through a focus on inclusion, accessibility and universal design

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hello everyone. Today I speak with Patrick or Paddy McGrath, who is an international speaker, blogger, podcaster, and Had of Education Strategy at the Texthelp Group. Paddy shares how we can use digital tools to help our students better access our documents, but he really emphasizes the importance of making the content accessible first and foremost. You’ll leave today’s podcast with an easy way to make your documents more accessible and with more understanding of Universal Design for Learning. It’s a great podcast today and I hope you enjoy it. So now, onto the show. 

Hello Paddy and welcome to the podcast. 

Paddy: Hey Lori, good to be joining you today. Honored to be here.

Lori: Yeah, it’s great to see you again. We had uh, you came to our Bonn conference and were a presenter and…

Paddy: I had a fabulous, fabulous time there and Lori, I don’t think I’ve stopped talking about it since – just the enthusiasm throughout your organization and the people that were there was bindless and it was such a fabulous experience.

Lori: Ah, I’m so glad you enjoyed it, because I know everyone there really enjoyed your presentation and learned so much from you. 

Paddy: Thank you. It’s always good to get feedback, no matter which way it comes, so thank you. 

Lori: Well, today, we’re going to be discussing accessibility. And so I want to start off easy and just ask, what is accessibility? 

Paddy: Yeah, I suppose we should put a word in front of accessibility because what we’re talking about is digital accessibility today, just to be clear on that. I think what happens as educators and teachers and professionals is, we will use things like assistive technology, for example, and we’ll talk about text to speech or dictation or screen readers, or if you’ve got a visually impared child, we’ll look at things like JAWS… these are things that can really help make a difference in the classroom, but when it comes to accessibility, the one thing that helps is accessible content. The foundation of  content that sits underneath any of them to work. So for all of those tools we may choose to use with our students and pupils, if the underlying digital content is not accessible, is not readable to all of these wonderful tools we have access to, then it’s really not useful. And it goes beyond that as well. Accessibility is about making sure that any content we use, any content that we create, is more generally accessible. So pause for one second and go, is that content readable? Is it spaced well? Are the colors right on it? Is it going to be accessible to every single student that you may work with across multitude of ways and if we make sure our purpose and our plan to keep our digital content accessible, it becomes more readable, more digestible, more easily understood, whether with or without assistive technology tools. So for me, it’s a fundamental tool but sometimes it gets lost in the sea of all the wonderful tools and strategies that we’ve put in place and that’s really the foundation.

Lori: Yeah, thanks for pointing that out and I’ve seen members from your group, Greg O’Conner and Greg O’Conner has been a guest of ours at our conferences and our podcast and he actually shared with us something you all use to ensure your work is accessible or that the content is accessible. It was like SAM-R or something like that, is that correct? 

Paddy: There’s a range of models – we actually, Texthelp that we work for, we use an internal tool that kind of helps us identify things like is it readable? It’s what we call plain English, so that’s not necessarily accessible but it helps us make sure that we’re not overly using particularly complicated vocabulary words or words that are beyond an age grade or level. But in terms of accessibility, we’ll run third party tools and anybody has access to these and they can run a document through it. Most of, let’s say, Microsoft Word, if you use Microsoft Word or Google Docs, just write a document. You can actually just right click on the accessibility checker, just on the right click menu anywhere in the document and that’ll tell you, oh no those colors aren’t quite right or the language isn’t quite in place or the font size could do with a bit of an adjustment or this reference you’ve made about a kid may not be the right way to talk about that individual. So there are loads of ways that the in-built tools we all use can help us support access and tell us what to do.

And then there are other tools online, and I don’t know Lori, if you’ve got show notes on this podcast but by all means, I’ll send you something so that you can post those, but…

Lori: Sure, yeah. 

Paddy: so you can share it across the community, but there are web-based tools where you can simply upload a document or copy and paste it into and it’ll automatically say “look, these are the things you might want to consider changing” and then there are the rule based things – web based things. And that’s more advanced but that’s again, more… it’s not going to be for us educators. Stuff like that is more web professionals, we want to make sure that their content online is fully accessible because if they make their content accessible, that means when our students go to read it or consume it or engage with it, it’s going to be fully accessible to them as well under their guidelines. 

So there are lots of ways this could be done. My advice on that is to always run the accessibility tracker, something simple as Microsoft Word, or Powerpoint. It’ll tell you straight away what you could do to change it, to make it more accessible. 

Lori: That’s great. Fascinating, actually. And on our SENIA website, we’ve made our website accessible as well so there’s a little button that people can click and get different fonts and different areas so that’s pretty nice. 

Paddy: I think that also, Lori, goes into whenever I was at the SENIA conference, they were talking about UDL, Universal Design for Learning, and of course one of the caveats for that is we need to have multiple forms of representation, like we give our students multiple ways to look at a piece of digital content. Lots more to it than that, but that’s one of the strands and so if you imagine giving a student, let’s just call it a Word Document, you must have that document accessible because otherwise the student is just going to sit there and say I need this font to be bigger because visually I need it to be bigger or I’m dyslexic and I need to have wider spacing on the line or I need a screen layover on this to help me read this and reduce distractions… All of those small ways, if it’s not accessible, they can’t have access to it. So just things like UDL strategies and multiple ways, students need the opportunity to change the compound themselves, and it’s exactly like what you said. Things like font size, or font type, are really really important. 

Lori: hmm. Interesting. Well, thanks for mentioning Universal Design for Learning. How… can you expand more on how accessibility fits into Universal Design for Learning? 

Paddy: Yes, so if you take any piece of content, so this could be as a teacher, maybe we create something as sample work or document and we want to share that. Or perhaps we buy a PDF resource and we want to share that. But if you take either of those pieces of content or even a powerpoint or Google Slides slide deck, if we share that and if that’s not accessible, we can’t actually adhere to Universal Design for Learning or at least some of the strands of Universal Design for Learning because of course Universal Design for Learning and those multiple means of representation may say, look we may have to navigate this particular lesson or particular topic and use more images or cultural references, that’s absolute. But that’s not accessible in terms of what we’re talking about today. 

What we’re talking about today is for people who might, say, they get a word document and maybe they want to apply text-to-speech and have it read aloud. If it’s not accessible, they simply can’t have that read aloud. This particularly applies to things like PDFs. Many PDFs that we as educators might buy or maybe colleagues and peers have created, they’re not accessible. So imagine a pupil, they open that document and they want to use their favorite tool and press play and listen to it because it helps them understand. If it’s not accessible, that can’t possibly happen. And UDL obviously calls for the fact that we need to have that foundation of accessibility in order to access things in multiple ways. 

Now for example, students prefer to listen to a piece of content. Headphones in, just like you and I are on a podcast today. Headphones in and in a different position, a different learning position. They want to, for example, listen to it as an audiobook. Well, as a teacher, you may actually have to produce a document and then figure out how to produce an audiobook version of it – perhaps get a narrator or get a tool for it. If you go down UDL on this, and you start with the foundation of an accessible document, then that student has the part that can turn into whatever it is that they want. The larger font size. The different font type. Move the diagrams around. Read the labels from the diagrams. Change the layout. Change the spaces. Change the break lines. Simplify the text and remove the charts that may be confusing. So accessibility that is at the core gives students the voice and choice and that’s key under those UDL design principles that they have the flexibility that they need on that accessibility and accessible document.

Lori: Mmmhmm. Thanks.  And where does it all fit into inclusion? 

Paddy: Again, I think from an inclusive perspective, if we look at the diversity of students in our classroom, you know, we all know, we all talk about it a lot, you and I, and your members at SENIA, every single student we work with is different and they have different learning preferences, they have different ways that content should be consumed or understood and from an accessibility perspective, ultimately, what we’re doing is giving every single student a choice. And in my book, that’s a necessity for inclusion. Because if we make it so that we’re not having to make things for a specific student set… like, student A, Arial font, 10 point size and we’ll do it all in black and we’ll just leave it at that, we’re making the same mistake that we’ve always made, which is non-inclusive design, which is aiming for the middle ground. You know the bowling pin analogy, and that’s a real problem. If we make it accessible, the choice is ultimately with the student to change the content in the way they want. For me, it’s more than that. It’s making sure, from the get go, from the start, that that piece of content, because it’s accessible by design, is including as many students as it possibly can from the start. Without any modification or without changing anything. Even going anywhere near a digital tool. It’s more inclusive, right from the start. And I think that’s the fundamental importance and we can’t forget it. 

Lori: Yeah, it’s paramount. I love the student choice. And they can make the choice to make their document more accessible, right? I mean… 

Paddy: Yeah. You think about the stigma involved in that, as well as… you know, we talk a lot about assistive technology and part of the challenge with assistive technology is stigma. The 3 pupils out of the 30 pupil classroom that’s getting this tool or this laptop, to remove that, the obvious thing to do is, why not give everyone a laptop and give everyone the same tools… but the same is true of an accessible document. So let’s assume we have the basis and I give all 30 of my students an accessible document. That means the 2 people in the corner who might be struggling to read can change the font size. Nobody’s gonna know. 

Lori: Right!

Paddy: They’re included, they’re working on the same document, they’re able to change it in their ways. 3 pupils on the other side of the room, or spread around the room, may well simply need to increase the spacing or may need to increase the font. Not one person in that class needs to know what that pupil is actually doing. They can change that to suit their way. Everybody on the surface is using the same document and there’s no student service support required for that. They’re not saying “well, we’re going to produce A3 print outs for student A in the corner here and everyone else can use their laptop”. We’re giving them the same document. So there’s a reduction of markers, but for me, far more important, is that there’s less stigma and far more inclusivity in the classroom when we start at the… start, let’s say. 

Lori: Yeah. I mean, I want to bring that back to, just… many, I think it was 6 or 7 years ago when my daughter was taking her drivers’ test, here in the United States and the written portion of the test was done on a computer so you read it and you click buttons but they gave the option of also having it read aloud to you and you could take the test. So the first time she took it, she didn’t pass. And you know, my daughter has no learning disability in reading or anything but it was a difficult test. And then she said, I wonder if I could try the read-aloud option, I think I might do better that way. And she did. She passed it immediately and it was just that choice that she was given to be able to do that. Anyone can take that option so there’s no stigma involved in it so I just thought it was a really cool design that the department of Motor Vehicles did that for people and we can be doing that in our schools, easily. 

Paddy: Absolutely. Exactly. But what used to happen there, Lori, is you would’ve had 2 papers, just another example, where one was readable on paper and one wasn’t, and that just seems crazy. I mean, think about… not that we would ever want to do this, but park inclusion for one just second of the podcast and think about the workload for people that are creating these things – accessible from the start and you’ve cut the workload in half and then the max of upside is it’s more inclusive for people. And when I talk about things like text-to-speech, we don’t start with the basics of the word, like here’s how we can have the definition of the word and here’s how we can have it read aloud and this helps. But let’s take a really advanced paper at the university level for example. And let’s go… right, this is my dissertation that I’ve been writing. And you have no obvious challenges, no dyslexia, no obvious learning issues holding you back, you’re a good student, you’ve worked hard, you’ve written this paper and use the same tool to have it read back to you and understand if it simply just makes sense. Is it coherent? Are the punctuations in the right place to make sense of that sentence or that paragraph? So the same tools but ultimately, what it all comes down to is, is that one document accessible. You should just say, I talk about documents, you know… the hardest thing about the current moment is the amount of PDFs we use in our schools because there are so many of those things we’re buying and using that are just not accessible. And you give that to students who has an individual need or individual support, and they’re like “what am I going to do with this, it’s not accessible” and as teachers, we have to start from the start again and go, alright, what on earth do we do to actually make that more accessible? 

Lori: Yeah, well, that leads to my next question, is, where are we in education in our schools with this idea? 

Paddy: Yeah. That’s a really good question and from my perspective, I think we do need to see a change there. And I know people like you and me, Lori, and the members of SENIA are talking about changes and we’re quite passionate about driving things forward but you know, with something like accessibility, I think there’s recognition that it should be done but what there is not is necessarily is the mandate that okay, when we’re writing our Google Doc or Word Document, please use this font, please use this font size. Because I think a lot of people feel like it’s about brand and failing, but it’s not. It’s about accessibility. We need to have these rules in place, we need IT administrators to look at how we can go across organizations and set the right font and space for a document with the right font size. So from a teaching perspective, you just open up a new document and you start typing and you don’t have to worry about the accessibility piece. It’s done for you. And those are not big steps to take, either from a management perspective or an IT perspective, but they can make a world of difference to a child or a student or teacher’s workload. So I think that’s the way to go. 

It’s interesting because you know, I live in the UK, for your listeners, and in the UK, it’s actually a legal requirement as it is throughout most of Europe, under European law and that in higher education, everything must be accessible by law. So it has to be accessible, so the font has to be right, the alt-tags, the hyperlinks, all the things we all know, they all have to be done by law and they’ve had to go through over the last few years and over the pandemic times and revisit legacy content that’s on the website or the learning management platform teachers and lecturers are using have had to make it accessible. Huge job so it’s set a bit of a precedent, certainly across Europe and in the UK, and you know, I would love to see that. Maybe not mandated as such but certainly by leadership taking it on board, that we only need to do tiny tiny things there to make a huge impact. We’re not asking people to redefine how they teach, we’re not asking people for new frameworks, we’re not asking for UDL adoptions in schools at this point. Just make some small changes and make huge changes. Those small changes are super simple to do. 

Lori: Well, the fact that you mentioned the IT person at the school, I think, as an educator, none of us have thought to go to that individual and speak to them about this. So I think what I’m getting the most out of this podcast is to go right now to your tech person and help them figure out how you can change the entire system. They change it, and then teachers, they have access to it. It’s so simple, really. 

Paddy: Absolutely. Agreed. And that’s the… look, we all know getting a change in schools is challenging. And to do it… you can also do it by yourself. Lori, maybe we can link it in your shownotes, a link of a short video of the standard size of fonts in documents…

Lori: Sure!

Paddy: And it’s literally 3 clicks. And one of the reasons, I should say, that video was created was because it was asked about so many times at your conference in Bonn, like how do we do this? And that means as a teacher, I kid you not, you can literally take 10 seconds out of your day and you can just change the standard font size and the layout, just in Google Docs or Microsoft Word, and every time you open a new document or create something, it’ll be set up in a much more accessible way than it was before. And I promise you, it’s less than 10 seconds to do that, it’s so quick. 

Lori: Okay! 

Paddy: And I’m sure you know, we’re heading towards more accessible documents, but if you can get your IT department to do something as a teacher, you’ve made headway and I’d absolutely encourage people to do that. 

Lori: Yeah! Well, amazing. Yes. Please send us that link. We will definitely post it. I know our listeners are going to hop right on it to do that. The point of our podcast is not to talk about Texthelp but I do think it’s important that we hear about this tool. So can you briefly share a bit about it? 

Paddy: Yeah, so I suppose most people know Texthelp for a tool called Read & Write. It kinda does what it says on the title, but it will support pupils with reading, writing, studying, and in our case, exams. Fundamentally at its core, it talks about and uses things like text-to-speech but then it also goes on to say look, if you need help with a word, you can right-click on the word and you’ll get a dictionary definition and visual representation as a way to access that. But it acts as a toolbar so that, like, the accessible content we’re talking about here, this will just open but not anywhere special as the tools we use but it’ll give your students access to that. So it’s very much a student centered tool and it will give them dictation and it’ll do screen masking and the words on the pages it’ll remove distractions, so they’ve got this kind of… really neat suite of tools that unobtrusively sets at the top of the page and users can choose the right tool to support their reading, writing, and studying to a degree as well. And that’s for web pages or documents or PDFs or learning platforms. So anywhere a pupil and students may need some help with reading and writing, there’ll be tools that they actually need. And that, Lori, is being used by 16 million people globally, so people are getting quite a lot of help from that tool and so it’s doing something right and I know it’s well respected. It used to be for dyslexia support, I have to say first and foremost, and generally in many other areas actually, because it has dictation built in and stuff like that as well. So Swiss Army knife, like our SEALS people would talk about. Swiss Army knife for reading and writing. 

Lori: Well, it is really helpful and one of the international schools I’ve worked at before, we’ve adapted it as a school and some teachers used it more than others but it was helpful for all of our students and so many of them benefitted, whether they had a learning challenge or not. So, yeah, it’s a pretty powerful tool. Well, you are also going to be presenting at our upcoming virtual conference which I’m excited about of course, can you share a bit about what you might be discussing? 

Paddy: Well, we talked earlier about Universal Design for Learning and that is the real, sort of passion of mine. I’ve seen the difference it can make. But I also understand that it can be hard to implement that some skill, because it’s not prescriptive and there’s lots of things to do, so the session at the virtual conference is around UDL but specifically from the technology lens, and many aspects of UDL, as you know, Lori. But this is really looking at, what are the 3 areas of UDL and what are the technology tools, whether they’re free or paid for or online and offline, what technology tools can I actually plug in into UDL and start to fulfill some of the requirements. Because as you roll out UDL, we’ll look at how many different ways can we represent content or how many different ways can we engage content, and I think it’s always really useful to have that toolkit of technology at your disposal and understand how these tools impact UDL so it’s a practical session because there are so many good speakers looking at UDL principles and UDL design so I want to do something a bit more practical. So UDL but complete technology toolkit and what UDL tools are right there and what can you use within your UDL strategy to enhance your learning situation. 

Lori: Cool, well, I can’t wait! 

Paddy: Super practical, super hands on… and hopefully everyone can take away at least, and everyone says I just want to take away one thing, and this time I want everyone to take away at least 5 things because there’s so many simple technology tools that can make a world of difference right there. 

Lori: Cool. Cool. I can’t wait! Thanks. Well, I think that’s all we have time for today in our podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time today and sharing all your incredible knowledge with us!

Paddy: Thank you. Always a pleasure! 

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #67 Becoming a Totally Inclusive School

Show #67 Becoming a Totally Inclusive School

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Angeline Aow and Dr. Sadie Hollins, the authors of Becoming a Totally Inclusive School a Guide for Teachers and School Leaders published by Routledge in November, 2022. 

Many of you know Angeline Aow as she was a keynote speaker at our SENIA Europe conference and a presenter at our virtual conference happening right now (PS, it’s not too late to register for that as you are able to watch the videos for 4 months- so register today!). Both Sadie and Angeline have extensive experience and knowledge in supporting inclusion and today they share about their book, and give suggestions for how everyone in a school setting should be empowered to be an inclusion advocate. They share about their inclusion continuum and how school leaders can use it to make necessary change. 

Bio

Angeline Aow & Sadie Hollins co-authored a book titled Becoming a Totally Inclusive School: a Guide for Teachers and School Leaders published by Routledge in November, 2022. 

 Angeline believes that every educator and student has the power to impact others to create a just and equitable world.

Dr Sadie Hollins has previously worked as a head of sixth form at a British International School in Thailand. She is the creator and editor of the Wellbeing in International Schools Magazine and co-author of ‘Becoming a Totally Inclusive School: A Guide for Teachers and School Leaders’. Sadie now creates content for a university and careers guidance platform for schools.

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hello everyone. I’m Lori Boll, your host, and today I speak with Angeline Aow and Dr.Sadie Hollins, the authors of Becoming a Totally Inclusive School – a Guide for Teachers and School Leaders published by Routledge in November, 2022. 

Many of you know Angeline Aow as she was a keynote speaker at our SENIA Europe conference and a presenter at our virtual conference happening right now! And just a little plug, it’s not too late to register for that as you are able to watch the videos for 4 months- so hey, why not register today! Anyway, both Sadie and Angeline have extensive experience and knowledge in supporting inclusion and today they share about their book, and give suggestions for how everyone in a school setting can and should be empowered to be an inclusion advocate. They share about their inclusion continuum and how school leaders can use it to make necessary change. So you know, enough of me. Let’s dive right in and learn about becoming a totally inclusive school. And now, onto the show. 

Hello Sadie and Angeline, and welcome to the podcast! 

Angeline: Thank you so much, Lori. 

Sadie: Thank you Lori.

Lori: Well, it’s great to have you here. You have written a book! So first off, congratulations. It’s a monumental task and you’ve done it! So, well done. 

Angeline & Sadie: Thank you.

Lori: And your book is called “Becoming a Totally Inclusive School, a Guide for Teachers and School Leaders”. What is it about and how did you start your project? 

Sadie: Yeah, thank you so much for having us Lori. So, I mean, the book overall is, there is a resource for teachers and leaders to help their school and their school communities become more inclusive. It basically does what it says on the text. But I think it’s an interesting story how we’ve come together. Me and Angelline have never met in person and actually the first time we made contact with each other was as a part of this project. So we were introduced by a third party and we had the idea to try to create a book that would be useful for schools and I never told Angeline this, but I think I thought, coming into the meeting, I’d like to create a resource that might help PSATs and international schools in different contexts and make it more inclusive. So I was coming in very much with that angle, but I think for what we’ve created and I think Angelie will share more about how the idea came about and the structure of the book and the material in it. But yeah, we used to meet every Sunday, or nearly every Sunday, for nearly a year. And nearly two years later, the book is here. 

Angeline: Yeah, it’s been an absolute joy to meet Sadie and I sometimes wake up on a Sunday now and think “oh I’m missing something!” because the book is, the process of writing is over and… But the book really came off a series of presentations that I’ve been doing with schools, for what’s called an DEIJ advocacy course, and I have like a 6 course series that I developed and was working with institutions and international schools and so in thinking about when you want to move forward in this area, even if it’s in your domain of teaching, you really need a whole school approach and so thinking about that and thinking about all the different elements that you need in order for you to have the infrastructure support that you need, the mindsets and behaviours that you would love for your colleagues and your families to have to move this forward, and so the book really started with thinking about the broad picture and supporting everyone in your school to be able to move forward together. 

4:30

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #68 The Impact of the MARIO Approach

Show #68 The Impact of the MARIO Approach

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Phillip Bowman, a Learning Support Specialist and the Co-Founder and CEO of MARIO Framework. This September, the National Association for Special Education Needs (NASEN) published a peer-reviewed study co-authored by Phillip and Universal Design for Learning (UDL) expert Dr. Katie Novak.. The 6-year retrospective study places the efficacy of Philip’s uniquely structured approach to one-to-one learning conversations in the top 5% of educational interventions. Today’s podcast centers around the impact of the MARIO approach and the results of this study.

Bio

Philip Bowman is a learning support specialist at International School Bangkok, with 17 years of classroom experience. Philip is an innovative teacher-researcher who prioritizes relationships, research, and design thinking in the classroom. This September, the National Association for Special Education Needs (NASEN) published a peer-reviewed study co-authored by Universal Design for Learning (UDL) expert Dr. Katie Novak. The 6-year retrospective study places the efficacy of Philip’s uniquely structured approach to one-to-one learning conversations in the top 5% of educational interventions. He is the Co-founder & CEO of MARIO Framework, a K-12 professional learning & edtech company operating in over 25 countries.

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Show #69 WIDA, Collaboration, & SENIA Africa

Show #69 WIDA, Collaboration, & SENIA Africa

Host Lori Boll speaks with Jon Nordmeyer on today’s show, WIDA’s International Program Director. Jon is a long-time friend of SENIA, international presenter, published author, An international educator and researcher for over 30 years, and  has taught graduate seminars at Harvard Graduate School of Education and Tibet University. Today’s discussion touches on many topics such as DEIJ and EAL, the intersectionality of multilingualism and neurodiversity, collaboration between EAL and Learning Support Teachers, and much more.

Bio

Jon Nordmeyer is WIDA International Program Director at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, supporting a global network of over 500 schools. He believes that as educators we must also be learners, and in international learning communities teacher collaboration can not only ignite student learning but also fuel professional growth. An international educator and researcher for over 30 years, he has taught graduate seminars at Harvard Graduate School of Education and Tibet University. He co-edited the book Integrating Language and Content and has written for Journal of Staff Development, International Schools Journal, Educational Leadership and Global Education Review.

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Resources from Today’s Show

Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[ Introduction music plays ]

Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you 1 hours worth of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour. 

Lori: Hello everyone. Today, I had the opportunity to speak to, for the second time, Jon Nordmeyer, who is the International Program Director at WIDA at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Now, if you’re not sure what WIDA is, no worries. Jon will fill you in through our podcast. Today, we also spoke about DEIJ and its relationship to EAL students, we talked about the challenges of intersectionality between multilingualism and neurodiversity, how EAL and learning support teachers can better work together, the importance of co-teaching and co-planning, and how specialist roles are changing in schools. Jon also shares a bit about what he will be presenting at our South Africa conference and has a pretty big announcement to share as well. So now… onto the show. 

Well, hello Jon and welcome back to our podcast!

Jon: Hey Lori, it’s good to see you again. Happy new year and thanks for the chance to join you again!

Lori: Yeah, well, yeah, it’s your second time that you’ve joined us for a podcast and you’re a longtime friend of SENIA. I mean… how long have we known each other? Very long time. You’ve been a valued speaker at our past conferences and you’ll be joining us in South Africa in February for our conference at the American International School of Johannesburg. We’ll be talking more about that later in the episode but for now, can you tell us about your organization, WIDA? Remind people who may not have heard your first podcast or have seen you present? What is it, and how has it grown over the years? 

Jon: Sure. Well, I am excited to talk a little bit more about Johannesburg and the SENIA Africa conference and I really appreciate being included in that. I’m the International Program Director at WIDA and WIDA is a part, a project at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. It’s coming up on 20 year anniversary, actually. WIDA, the origin story, it grew from a federal grant to develop an assessment  to measure English language development and ensure accountability that states were serving multilingual learners to ensure that the programmes were successful and the students were identified and served. So it really came out of an accountability origin and its grown from the initial grant of a couple of states to 41 US states with the flagship assessment, the language assessment, ACCESS for ELLs and in the past 10 years, we have added international schools to the WIDA family. So right now, we have 550 schools that are members of the WIDA International School Consortium and all these schools are committed to building equitable programmes to serve multilingual learners and work together with the WIDA resources across this community of practice. And as that growth continues, I have, a little teaser, an exciting news about the next iteration, the next revolution, of this network that I think we’ll have chance to discuss at the end of the podcast. 

Lori: Ooh! Well, I can’t wait! I can’t wait to hear it! 

Jon: I’ll leave you hanging…

Lori: Ohhhkay. Gosh, alright. Well, let’s see, 568 schools and all of those in the US as well… I’m impressed. You’re 20 years old just like SENIA so congrats! Congrats! 

Jon: Well, both of our organizations do similar work in different ways, supporting teachers and students and families who may not be, perhaps, as successful without teachers and organizations like SENIA and WIDA and really paying attention to how we can create inclusive schools. So I think we really appreciate the work that SENIA has done and also the fact that the community of international schools have come together around really important issues. 

Lori: Yes, yes. And now it’s going to be our goal at SENIA to get 568 member schools… right now we have 25 so if you’re out there and listening and you want your school to join SENIA, please do! 

Jon: I recommend it. 

Lori: Me too! So, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion… it’s really the mission, as we’ve talked about for both of our organizations. How does DEIJ relate to English as an Additional Language? 

Jon: That’s a great question, Lori. And I think whether it’s considered EDIJ, DEIJ, it is a long overdue conversation in international schools about the role of equity and privilege across some really dynamic and innovative, but also quite elite institutions. And so, I feel really fortunate to be part of University of Wisconsin, Madison, and the school of education is committed to rigorous research and social justice, and those two are not mutually exclusive. They’re actually complimentary. So at the heart of our work is really investigating the intersection of language and equity and we know that language is not neutral – in the classroom, in the playground, the hallway… the language choice that are available or restricted has a direct connection to opportunity and identity. And so I’m actually working on an article with a colleague about this intersection of DEIJ and language. And so a couple important themes that have emerged is thinking about diversity, that schools really understand and represent the languages and cultures in their community and if schools talk about, sometimes, students from diverse backgrounds or students who represent linguistic and cultural diversity, that actually becomes a form of exclusion by expressing that we have the mainstream and then we have diversity, the diverse students, students from diverse backgrounds. So it’s both an exclusion and objection and so my colleagues call it a double gesture. And so when we recognise diversity, all students are diverse and recognising the language that expresses who students are, that language directly connects to celebrating and leveraging that diversity and linguistic diversity as a strength. And likewise, equity. Beyond a surface level conceptions of fairness, when students come to schools with a gift of multilingualism but they don’t have full access to the curriculum, something needs to be done and so thinking about how EAL teachers can be advocates that students who are in the first 6 months, we don’t accept that it’s a silent period but we may be recognising that it’s a silencing period, if we’re not allowing or encouraging students to use their own languages as a way to access the curriculum and to use translanguaging as a tool for learning. And then with inclusion, really in the last 10 years, I feel like we’ve made a lot of progress in international schools, considering what it looks like not just to include all students across the diverse spectrum of learning diversity and multilingualism and students from a variety of different backgrounds, but really leverage Universal Design to recognise that students aren’t just included but meaningfully engaged and have access to the curriculum. 

And one of the things that really excites me about the SENIA conference theme for SENIA Africa is that we need to move beyond the label. We need to stop labeling students and recognize that all students are different and all students have unique learning profiles. And that we can build on that experience as a real strength. And the last theme I think is justice, connecting to language, and recognising how systems work and challenging discrimination is a part of the role of being an EAL teacher. And in this case, teachers and organizations like SENIA and WIDA are asking international schools how they can be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. And we recognise again, that for too long, elite institutions have been design to exclude and enforce white privilege, and it’s uncomfortable for a lot of schools and a lot of teachers but that’s why we need to keep asking the question even if we don’t have good answers, and the role of language which policy is absolutely connected to DEIJ, particularly thinking about how we create equitable inclusive schools. 

Lori: Yes. Uh, you said so much and I’m processing it but just a connection with the work that we do at SENIA, is that whole idea of ableism and focusing on the, where, our typical learners are. And even using words like “normal”, we end up isolating our students who we say have different learning needs. But as you mentioned, we all have different learning needs and so… just, you know, supporting all of our learners with that lens is essential and the work that you’re doing and the work that SENIA is doing hopefully helps with that. 

Jon: I think there’s some really important intersections and I think that we need to recognise that when we’re coming from a learning support perspective or a language perspective, that it’s a part of a wider conversation about how schools can be schools of all students, how all teachers can share responsibility for all learners and I think what we’ve seen in schools over the last decade is the commitment to DEIJ is not just yet another initiative but actually is a platform that connects a lot of really important populations in schools and issues across schools and so it’s not that inclusion is just another another initiative on the plate, it IS the plate. So we need to go back to how we’re doing that for schools to serve their mission and serve their schools. 

Lori: I love that. It is the plate. I’m going to share that with many many people. It’s perfect. 

Jon: Please do. And I’m excited to be able toh ave this conversation with you becasie I think organizations that serve a particular population or come from a disciplinary background, really need to work together to find strength in that connecti onand that intersection. 

Lori: Mmhmm. Agree. So we’ve been alluding to this but what are some challenges and opportunities around the intersection for multilingualism and neurodiversity? And how can EAL and learning support teachers, how can they work together? 

Jon: Yeah, I love this question because I really think it is a classic problem-tunity for this intersection is, can be challenging historically but also really necessary for the students that we serve. I think work is parallel and when we think about all teachers sharing responsibilities for all students across the school community, that is where EAL teachers become resources, not only for students but also for colleagues as a part of an identity shift in the field, where we’ve shifted away or we’re in the process of shifting away from withdraw or isolated interventions, which really fragment a students’ day but isolate a student and teachers. But really moving away from the isolating and segregating, to a more inclusive school experience that focuses on integrating and inclusion and collaborating. So I think that we have that in parallel as to fields and disciplines working to that end, and I think at the same time, learning support and EAL teachers bring specific specialised expertise to conversation when we’re talking about students. So when we’re talking about how students learn best and students’ unique profiles and how students develop language and some of the diagnostic tools and the data involved in that, it’s really important to have professionals with a variety of expertise together, talking about how do we serve individual students and build on individual strengths and needs. And I think historically, some of the division or the barriers have come from policy and funding, oarticualrly in the context of US publics schools, where the reality is that students have a legal basis to have specific labels associated with them and funding often comes from that which is in place to protect students and serve students. But in some cases, that strict binary distinction of needing to choose a label, have one label or the other, I think has created in schools, an unnecessary barrier to teachers collaborating. Or in worst case scenarios, turf wars in resources when really, we should be working together to share. So I think there’s a lot of opportunity there and we’re exploring that with organizations like SENIA to think about how we can collaborate. But we need to be aware of some of the historical barriers and challenges to collaborate that we face. 

Lori: Yeah, and i think one of the most harmful is what learning support teachers, probably EAL teachers, often hear is “this is your kid”, “this is your student” so that’s something that we are constantly, it seems, coming up against in the classroom or in the school. 

Jon: Right, and I think we’re shifting away from the 20th century model of the specialist as expert who has a magic wand and we can somehow wave that magic wand over students who are considered different and our students and we can somehow fix those students so they can go back to the mainstream, regular curriculum taught by the teacher and you can see, Lori, I’vr got air quotes around all of these…

Lori: haha yes. 

Jon: And the reality is we’re moving towards the 21st century model where we are collaborating as specialists and working together in the classroom for all students and universal design in a language and literacy rich accessible instruction that is going to benefit students across a variety of abilities, and in fact, it benefits all students. And actually you’ve had a lot more talks about Universal Design for teachers, and saying “wow, this is going to be great for all my students” so I think addressing that barrier of “who owns this student?”, Well, we all own the students, they’re all of our students, so collaboration really feeds into that opportunity. 

Lori: So I’d love to chat with you more about this collaboration piece in schools. So, how has collaboration transformed the role of specialist teachers like us where we were once serving only as a resource that you’ve talked about for students, but now we also serve as a resource for students AND colleagues? 

Jon: I think it’s exciting, but it’s also scary for a lot of specialists because we need to do better as schools to ensure that as professionals, whether we’re learning support or language specialist, that we can utilize it as a resource for the whole school community. And that means supporting students but also working together in the community as a collaborator, and in some cases, as a coach or a mentor. And days of only “close my door and give me few students and I will play vocabulary games with them” – those days are gone and we know that the real work of learning happens in the classrooms and all day long. So the identity shift of specialist teachers working with students directly but also by extension, colleagues, is exciting because it’s generative. And so if you or I are co-teaching with a colleague and we’re running an activity with a small group, then that activity becomes a part of the teachers’ repertoire and we’re able to model, add, and co-design learning experiences that enrich what all teachers are able to do. So the generative aspect of being together with colleagues and with teachers really add to everyone’s toolbox and i think the co-planning aspect of our collaboration is a valuable opportunity that is often missed. 

And I would argue that co-planning is as important as, if not more than, as co-teaching because when we sit down with a team of teachers, the 4th grade team, and we plan scaffolding that integrates a variety of learning opportunities and has support for students across a variety of ability level, needs, languages… that lesson will be in all of grade 4 classrooms, even if we are not in the 4th grade classroom. So it opens up the door for crossing space in time, and I know we’ve experimented with virtual collaboration over the last few years, but when we co-plan, whether it’s a Google Doc or over Zoom or face to face, we’re able to really raise the collective instructional intelligence of the whole team. And I think the last aspect of collaboration is it reduces historical isolation that teachers have felt. And we felt that painfully during the pandemic and so to to have teachers join each other virtually or in person, it introduces energy into the profession and I think it’s every teachers’ greatest fear and greatest hope that someone, one day, discovers what actually happens in our classroom. And to have a colleague see, and witness the power of creation and students are asking wonderful questions and answering questions and it’s really, it’s a rare opportunity. And in the same way, there are some days that are absolute failures and we just turn off the light and close the door and say we’re not gonna talk about this again… But to have someone else to share that success and failure and be able to sit back and unpack and analyze, builds collective efficacy. Which we know, from Jon Hattie’s work, is really at the top of the effect size. 

So it’s not really just experiencing it together but reflecting on those experiences that reduce isolation and help us really understand our craft better. 

Lori: Yes. And the important part of co-planning and this observation of other colleagues, this has to come from top-down. We have to have our administrators recognise the importance of this. And perhaps this is something we can talk about in the future podcast, on how we can encourage that. Or what different schools systems look like, some good examples of schools that are doing this and how we can benefit from it. 

Jon: 100%, I agree. And I think that administrative support is key. I think administrators also don’t have a magic wand and they need to know what collaboration looks like and they need to know the value of co-planning and they’re not just extra bodies in the room that’s using up FTEs but it has a generative multiplier effect so we need to be scheduled into co-planning meetings and make time for co-planning and it needs to be deliberately scheduled into the day and teachers need to have capacity for it for it to be really successful. 

Lori: Yes. Well, let’s transition a bit, to Johannesburg, Africa! You will be there, we’ll be there, in about 5 weeks and you’ll be doing an all-day pre-conference and keynoting and doing 4 additional workshops, which is so amazing. Can you give us a sneak peek? 

Jon: Yeah, well, I’m excited to attend this conference in South Africa and the opportunity to work with teachers from a variety of backgrounds, both geographic and professional backgrounds. I love the themes, I mentioned the intentional integration of different disciplines and my keynote will really focus on the role of student voice. How important it is for educators to not only listen to but to amplify particularly students who have been historically at the margin and isolated. And so for us to recognise that we spend a lot of time and frankly a lot of money on assessment data. And so adding to what we gain from assessments, that is, it’s a valuable data point but that’s just one datapoint. So if we think about students’ lived experiences and what we can learn from listening to students talk about their learning. Students have such insight into what works for them and how teachers can support them and we harvest and leverage the power of student voice. Because they’re part of the conversation. And they have insights into all of the learning that compliment what we think we know, what we see from assessment data.

At my pre-conference, we’ll focus on collaboration and I know we talked about it a lot on this pod and I know it’s something that has been transformative in international schools in particular because I’ve seen the effect it has on schools and how it can really transform how teachers interact together. So in the pre-conference, we’ll deconstruct this shift we discussed earlier, from isolation and fragmented, to collaboration and inclusion and what does that look like and we’ll think about the identity shift in teacher roles and the skills teachers need to develop in order to effectively co-plan and co-teach. And how do schools build the capacity for collaboration to happen. And also, once collaboration is happening in a school, how can we leverage that as a force for school change? Because we can build capacity for collaboration but we can also build capacity through collaboration. 

And I am doing a couple of workshops. I really appreciate the opportunity to serve the SENIA community in this way and we’ll look at “how do we find language in the learning” and like a fish swimming in water, teachers are surrounded by language all the time. So taking a step back and recognising how language operates as a medium of learning will hopefully develop some deliberate strategies for using language in intentional ways. We’ll also look at translanguaging as a practice and as a pedagogy, how the intentional intermixing of languages as students both us all of their languages, their entire linguistic repertoire, for learning and as an expression of their unique identity is something that schools can embrace, understand, and utilize. 

And then we’ll also look at the partnership between EAL and learning support, how it’s an essential partnership, what are some barriers, and how we can continue to build on some of the shared foundation of what we have and what that looks like on the ground. 

Lori: Good stuff, Jon. And just as a reminder of a pre-conference, for people listening who may not know, it’s a chance for participants to spend one full day with one of our experts. We have 3, and you are one of those. So when you sign up for pre-conference, you are there all day, diving deep. 

Jon: It’s wonderful to have the opportunity for folks to engage in the pre-conference because often, even in a 2 or 3 hour session, conversations are just getting started and people want to share what they’re learning so building that community throughout the course of a day allows us to build those connections and hopefully send teachers home with new tools in their toolbox to apply right away. 

Lori: Awesome. Let’s circle back to the teaser you gave us at the beginning of the podcast… what is this big announcement that you have to share? 

Jon: Well, it is exciting and it hasn’t been, it hasn’t launched officially yet, but some colleagues and I from the School of Education at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, have proposed and have funding has been approved, for a new multilingual research center. And so this will investigate both in the US context and in the global context, some of the really important issues around teaching multilingual learners. So I’m excited because this provides an opportunity for us to leverage the existing community of schools. I talked about the 560 schools that are members of the WIDA International School Consortium to shift from an assessment focused network to a research focused network. And to provide opportunities for international schools to engage in research and action research and to be able to benefit from research done in an international context. And you know this, Lori, we don’t have enough research that attends to the international context and there’s such unique, vibrant, dynamic context so I’m really looking forward to sharing more about that. Make sure you stay tuned to the newsletter and we’ll launch the center this summer and looking forward to opportunities that this provides for educators and students around the world. 

Lori: That is big news! Congratulations! You must be so excited. 

Jon: Well, thank you. I’m looking forward to it and now that it’s been approved, it’s a lot to do and I’m excited to work with partners and partner organizations like SENIA around the world and engage in this work together and through the research practice partnership, again, we won’t only be conducting research but we’ll also be asking schools to co-construct our research agenda and to be able to have intellectual play dates with scholars around the world to be able to share what we’re learning and what it means for teaching and learning. 

Lori: That’s great. And I’ll also add the WIDA information to the show notes to the podcast… I’m sure you’re all hearing my cat meowing in the background, so I apologize for that. But yeah, great stuff, Jon. Thank you so much! 

Jon: The cat is very telling, and that also means it’s the end of the podcast, so thank you Lori, I appreciate the opportunity again to work so much with SENIA organization and the opportunity to connect with you again on the podcast.

Lori: Always great chatting with you. Thank you. 

Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s SENIAinternational.org/podcast. Until next time, cheers.

Show #70 Teach RARE- supporting caregivers of children with a rare disease or undiagnosed disability

Show #70 Teach RARE- supporting caregivers of children with a rare disease or undiagnosed disability

Today host Lori Boll speaks with Richard Poulin, an educator and parent. When Richard’s daughter was diagnosed with a rare disease, he and his wife, Judy (also a teacher), felt isolated and didn’t know how to support their daughter. Now, they are taking their knowledge as educators and what they learned raising their daughter and are helping the community with their new non-profit organization called Teach RARE. This organization helps families by providing them with a framework at home, role modeling teaching and learning strategies, connecting parents with educational resources, and teaches institutions and groups for a larger reach. You will be inspired by Richard and Judy’s story and we encourage you to reach out to them if you know someone who needs their support.

Bio

Born in California, raised in Japan, and grew up in Thailand. Richard began working with hospitals by supporting international patients to receive elective surgery in Thailand. Later he transitioned to the education sector. Since then, he has worked with international schools in Asia, supporting bilingual-multilingual students and developing supportive educational programs. He and his wife are proud parents of an AADC child, Rylae-Ann, and established Teach RARE to support their community.

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Transcript

Transcribed by Kanako Suwa

[Intro music plays] Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour podcast with your host, Lori Boll. We know you’re busy so we bring you one hour’s worth of content in under 30 minutes, leaving you time for a true happy hour.

Lori: Hello listeners and welcome to Happy Hour. Today’s is all about assistive technology. And I speak with Jeff Sisk, who is the Senior Manager of Assistive Technology Services in Fairfax County Public Schools, Virginia, which is the 12th largest school district in the United States. He has been working in this field of assistive technology or AT for over 25 years and actively participates in the planning and implementation of district technology initiatives. He collaborates with regional assistive technology partners and hosts a biennial assistive technology conference. Jeff also regularly speaks at state and national conferences and has provided technology, auditing, and training for the United States Department of State’s international schools. He’s served as an adjunct instructor at George Mason University for more than 15 years and has co -authored an Assistive Technology Industry Association’s Assistive Technology Outcomes and Benefits Journal. Say that 10 times fast. And the journal is called Voices from the Field, the Assistive Technology Services experience of the 2020 -21 school year. Prior to his career in assistive technology, Jeff was a special education teacher. So I’m really excited about today’s show. We speak all things AT and I learned a lot from Jeff. So I’m excited for you to hear it. So now on to the show.

Well, hello Jeff and welcome to the podcast.

Jeff: Hi, how are you doing today, Lori? Glad to be here.

Lori: Well, I’m doing great. Thank you. So I’ve already told the guests, the listeners, what your background is. Given your extensive experience in assistive technology and your role in shaping technology initiatives in such a huge school district, we’re eager to dive into your insights. So to start off, how do you see technology currently contributing to inclusive student learning environments?

Jeff: Sure, as you mentioned, I work in a very large school district. It’s the 12th largest in the United States. So we have very diverse populations with very diverse learning needs. And I always considered that exciting.

And I also really kind of came in at a time with technology, really in its beginning of evolution in terms of how it’s being used in the classroom. So I was, I began as a classroom teacher, you know, kind of exploring methods and I was a special education teacher to improve students’ abilities to read and write and perform really any classroom task in time. And so I think it’s very exciting now that we have so many one -to -one computing initiatives that are in schools and students have access to so many broad technology tools.

And these tools can really foster that inclusive learning environment that you spoke to. So there’s so many opportunities for personalized learning, where students can self -select tools that best meets their instructional needs and best accommodates their learning deficits, and then also speaks to learning strengths that they may have, there’s better opportunities to collaborate. And of course, that also lends to different types of learning projects and experiences inside of classrooms. And we’re example of that even right now, even though we’re not necessarily doing with some education, but it allowed us to connect and even have this conversation, the technology that is available now. There’s just more tools for enhanced learning experiences, better ways for students to express themselves in literacy, reading and writing, mathematics and projects, and really just engaging and creative approaches that otherwise if those technology tools were not around, they just really have the opportunity to grab a hold and use those. And it’s just a matter of just really acknowledging that they’re there, recognizing that they’re there, and creatively in building them and implementing them in your instruction.

Lori: Great. Thanks so much. We really want to dive into that assistive technology piece today. So first off, can you just define that for us? What is it?

Jeff: Yeah, so by law, it’s actually been defined in the Individual with Disabilities Education Act federally here in the United States, IDEA, as any tool and or service that will increase, improve, or maintain the functional capabilities of a student. So I feel like that definition, more maybe loosely defined, levels the playing field for students that have some type of specific learning need. It’s just providing them access to curriculum. And the technology tools build those supports to allow them to engage in classroom content at the same level as their peers. 

And that’s really exciting for me personally. And I’ve watched a lot of students over a lot of years be able to access instruction, be able to be part of classrooms that they otherwise would have been excluded from. And so that’s assistive technology really at its core and why it is a required tool for those students rather than just even being a beneficial tool for those students.

Lori: Thanks, yeah. I know that when I was first teaching in a classroom for students with more higher support needs really, I learned that assistive technology could be something as simple as a button that students push that has one saying on it, right? Versus all the way to maybe an iPad where they’re using Proloquo2Go or some sort of communication software to help them actually make choices. 

Jeff: Yeah, speech, thank you.

Lori: Thank you, I can’t speak right now. So, yeah, so I thought that was really interesting is that it doesn’t have to be these complex, like assistive technology is not necessarily this complex system. It’s everything as you described.

Jeff: Yeah, another analogy that I’ve heard or just that many, many people have access to are eyeglasses or contact lenses. That is increasing, improving, or maintaining your ability to perform within that classroom.

And I think that that’s a really good example, too, that most people can relate to, because they’re not going to be able to visually see or participate in anything going around them unless they had those eyeglasses or those contact lenses, or even the LASIK surgery would be the medical, you know, surgical version of that, which is not assistive technology, necessarily. But, but, you know, that is usually just kind of assumed that it’s there to participate in doing what you’re going to do in the class that day. And so I like that analogy, too. I think there’s a lot of good things there that you’re pointing out that people jump to me to, you know, this more advanced, you mentioned the iPad with Proloquo2Go as an augmentative communication speech generating device, very high tech, but those low tech accommodations can go a lot away. The simplest, I’m a big fan of simple and easy. Those are the best assistive technology tools or the simple and easy assistive technology tools.

Lori: Well, let me put you on the spot. What are some other easy assistive technology tools? 

Jeff: Sure. So there’s a couple I think that we’re going to speak to in a little bit. And again, I think that even simple and easy is changing. So it’s really where you’re accessing your reading materials and writing materials and your content.

And I’m seeing more and more of that actually happening on the computer as opposed to in a paper format. And so those tools I’m finding are being built into your computer systems more and more all of the time. You just have to really just kind of know that they’re there. And so the two places that I go to first are speech to text. So that is having the auditory supports for your computers to read to you. And then the opposite is… I’m sorry, I just reversed that. I meant to say, text to speech, excuse me. So that will have your computer read aloud to you.

But then the flip of that, I think is just as convenient, which is what I’ve mentioned first, speech to text. And that is allowing your computer to dictate and write to you. Those are a couple of clicks away on every computer, pretty much that’s out there in whatever operating system that’s out there. And you can even say that you have it in your pocket and every person that has a cell phone is carrying around those tools in their pocket. So their phones or their computers can read to them and provide auditory supports and additional auditory processing for that information, or then provide written dictation tools so that you’re not necessarily having to type or even express yourselves where you’re writing through that. Typing can sometimes be a barrier, of course, and that’s just an easy way for them. Do you just put those thoughts onto a document that can be cut and pasted and manipulated very easily? So those are the two places I think I would go to first in this day and age. 20 years ago, we would be looking at more paper supports.

Lori: Right. Well, years ago, I hurt my arm and I needed to use speech -to -text, and I realized that I’m much more efficient and effective in my own writing when I use speech -to -text, so I use that quite often. And I always use it when I’m text messaging. My daughter calls me a boomer. 

Jeff: So can I ask you, because I know the difference in how that looks in terms of the evolution of these technology tools, The tools that you were using that long ago, I would assume were much more difficult than the tools that you may have access now. Is that a correct statement?

Lori: That is true. When I would use it with my students, we would have to have them sit down and they’d have to train it to recognize their voice patterns and all of that. Now, that’s not necessary. 

Jeff: Yes. 

Lori: You just start and it works.

Jeff: Yes. That is amazing to me. I remember that’s to me how technology can evolve. I remember the first time that I saw that in a Google document. I see that in a lot of educational environments, not just here in Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia, but many, many other places where their Google documents are just being opened up and used as the main word processor for students. When that tools menu included that voice typing option, It wasn’t announced. There wasn’t to me a lot of press around it. It was a call that I got from a friend of ours in the IT department. He just said, Jeff, have you checked this thing out in Google? I looked and I saw the drop -down and I was like, that is fantastic and I wonder how many steps it takes to set that up exactly what you’re describing. Wonder how long I have to read to this computer for it to learn who I am. But instead, in a couple of clicks, it magically worked and what a game -changer for a lot of kids. That was just a great day, great leap in our technology evolution.

Lori: Also just a great example of universal design for learning, right?

Jeff: Yes.

Lori: It’s not just a great tool for our students who have neurodiversity or whatever. Anyone can use it and it’s beneficial. So you were talking about using assistive technology and some of the tools you use. Can you share a success story of how assistive technology is significantly improved as students learning experience?

Jeff: Sure. I’m glad you asked that because I’ve been involved with professional development for a number of years, close to 20 years. And my role as an assistive technology coach and now as an assistive technology administrator. And as good as I think I am, there is nobody better than a student speaking to how they use assistive technology. And those stories carry so much more weight than I could ever carry in terms of getting up in front of a group of teachers and explaining the benefits of assistive technology.

And we have developed a group of students here that anybody could look up and see. If you look for Fairfax County Public Schools, AT Ambassadors, Assistive Technology Ambassadors, they’re students that are willing to share their story. And we have done on our public webpage and there’s one I’ll specifically point out because she’s just a fantastic story. They’re all fantastic stories. So I guess I shouldn’t favor one over another, but she’s just a student that I’ve been working with for a long time and her name is Emmy. And her story was first published in a, it’s a great video. It’s only a three, three and a half minute video. It’ll tell the story very well and you get to actually see and meet her in fifth grade. And it was about the time that she was diagnosed with dyslexia and not revealing any confidential information when I tell the story because her and her family are very open to telling this experience. And her family participated in this little video segment that we have towards her assistive technology use and assistive technology tools.

When she was diagnosed with dyslexia, she wanted to explore what that actually meant for her. I think that there was a little bit of fear associated with that for her, that diagnosis, and also what the impact with that would be for her at school, and how she could continue because she liked being in the classes that she was in, but she was struggling with reading. We were able to document basically her own advocacy where she looked into the tools that she wanted to use to support her reading needs on her school -assigned computer, and then her going back in and showing her teacher and others in the school the tools that would best benefit her so that she can continue participating in her fifth grade class. We were able to capture that video just before COVID.

And that became a great, of course, we relied more on computing technology than ever for instruction during COVID closures. That became a great way to give a student example of how they self -selected the assistive technology tools that best met their needs, and then how they were able to communicate and implement those in their regular school setting. To this day, Emmy remains one of our most active AT ambassadors. She is in 10th grade. She is in advanced academic placement classes, and she still uses those tools to have speech to text for, yes. And text to speech, both. I’m gonna reverse those back and forth in this whole conversation, so I apologize. Apologize, Emmy, if you turn around and listen to this, how she advocates for the use of those tools and those academic settings so that she can access all of the reading and all of the writing that she needs to do and keep up with the pace of those rigorous classes. So she remains with us as a fantastic student example of assistive technology integration in a universal design for learning environment and as a success story. And again, she’s not the only one. These are just the students that are willing to share their stories. I go back to that because we have many, many others with similar stories.

Lori: Well, first off, well done, Emmy, if you’re listening. And I think it, first off, advocacy is something you mentioned there that Emmy advocates for herself. And I’m curious about the advocacy piece in terms of a student learns of what works for them. Is it the expectation of that student to share that with the teachers? Is there anything from your position at your school where you also advocate for the student?

Jeff: Absolutely, Lori. We really take, we’ve really, especially over the past two or three years, more recent years, a really strong emphasis on that universal design for learning approach that you mentioned. So we don’t want this to be one person, whoever that person would be, to drive this type of instructional change. It’s what we call our collective responsibility. It’s the collective responsibility of a team inside of a school to advocate and to use these types of technology tools. 

And if you go back, I’m gonna again mention the video again, what I love about the video, it’s hard to tell in that video who is actually driving the change for Emmy to use these technology tools inside of her classroom. Everybody speaks to the experience. And what I mean by everybody, it is Emmy, it’s her teachers, it’s her family, administrators, there is an assistive technology coach that is technology support within the school. There’s also another technology support personnel we would call our school -based technology specialists. All of them are active in the conversation so it doesn’t feel that it’s coming from one place and this person prefers to do it and that other person may disagree. It is that a Collective role of everyone to ensure any success because at the end of the day, that’s what anybody wants, right? we all want our students to succeed and That’s where we find that success is best met when everybody participates in it.

Lori: Yeah, thank you for that and we’ll post the link to that video in our show notes so everyone can actually get to it. 

Jeff: Absolutely.

Lori: So That brings me around to what are some common misconceptions about assistive technology? you’ve mentioned that it’s collective effort have you had pushback and What is that pushback and why?

Jeff: Yeah, I’m gonna go to two c -words here where where I think is the the pushback for assistive technology use and the first one is is cheating that we have run across some perceptions that are out there that these technology tools presents an advantage for students that’s unfair to other students that may not be receiving that advantage. But again, we go back to that definition of increase, improve or maintain. That’s all we’re looking to do is level the playing field. And that’s what I mentioned to earlier with that inclusive learning experience and the great things that technology tools can offer us. That is that personalized learning.

And go back to pretty much everybody has a cell phone and pretty much everybody has an iPhone and they may have pretty much the same model. But if they open their iPhones, they all look very different. It’s customized to the needs of the individual. And that’s what we go back to with the technology and technology and learning. We can customize a lot of our tools to the needs of our students locally. And then that they are going to take those tools to use to benefit them and support their needs. And I get back to that Emmy example. Emmy’s not cheating. She’s never been cheating. But she does have dyslexia. She does have something that prevents her from reading in a traditional way. And so these technology tools are accommodating that. And that allows her to participate in those advanced academic placement classes. You can even see with these types of tools that I mentioned in that universal designed environment, everyone has access to these tools. And so other types of students, such as English language learners, may benefit from using them also because they’re auditory. Excuse me, may provide additional auditory processing for what they’re attempting to read. So.

It may become a cumbersome tool for others, as an example. So it might get in the way and it might not be reading in the way that, say, a more visual learner may be able to interpret and read that text. So that’s where I think as a barrier that we’ve been working to overcome, I think that as more people familiarize themselves with the tools, the more they realize that that’s not the case, that cheating is not going on, that it actually is fostering learning and that we’re working to meet learning objectives for students. 

On the flip side of that, the other C -word that I refer to is the crutch, what we refer to as the crutch. So that if my student uses these tools, they’ll never learn to do this independently. And any body of research and any professional experience that I’ve come across actually fosters the opposite. It does the exact opposite. So. We’ve been talking a lot about text to speech, and I got it right that time, and I made sure that I watched myself before I said it. But really a different example of this is speech generating devices, so that a device that will foster communication, verbal communication for students that are nonverbal, for either physical or cognitive reasons or both. We’ll find over and over again with a speech generating device, the more a student begins to use a speech generating device, the more verbal they actually become. Because they start to understand the process of communication more and more and the benefit of communication more and more. It’s not cheating, it’s not a crutch, it does nothing but promote learning, and that’s the beauty of assistive technology.

Lori: Yeah, for sure. I know when I was using Proloquo to go with a student, her mom actually took away the iPad because she was convinced that it was taking away her ability to be verbal. 

Jeff: Sure. 

Lori: So we talked our way through it and it all worked out, but those are some misconceptions that definitely happen. So thanks for sharing those.

Jeff: Yeah, sure.

Lori: All right, so what’s the process of assessing a student’s needs and then matching them with the appropriate AT?

Jeff: So basically, what we do when we explore AT use with students is we’re always trialing the technology tools that are out there, and we look for the least restrictive tools for students as possible within a universal design for learning environment.

But with all of that said, we fall back on a framework that’s been established by a researcher for assistive technology a long time ago, Joyce Havala.

And it’s called the SETT framework, S -E -T -T. And the acronym that first is the student. And that makes sense that the student comes first, right? Because we want to know what specific learning needs that they have. And in an attempt to explore some technology accommodations that would be appropriate for them. So identifying student need, that’s the first piece. And then the E is environment. So what is the student’s learning environment? How are they accessing instruction? How are they participating in reading, writing, and other classroom tasks? How are they engaging and collaborating with other students within the classroom? And again, how do those needs then interact with the environment?

And then the first T represents task. What tasks are they attempting to perform? Are they attempting to write sentences, compose sentences, are they attempting to compose paragraphs, longer essays, read longer readings, shorter passages, or just exploring a reading in itself or even letter identification? So student, environment, task, and then finally the last two, we get to the tool. That’s when we finally make that determination. A lot of people like to work in reverse. Like, I’ve heard of this, so let’s try this. And typically when that approach is taken, it flops. I feel like kind of we’ve seen that like every time again and again just because something’s been discussed or advertised or shown somewhere. And this might work here, but there’s less consideration with those first three elements first, that student, the environment, and then the task. When those are really considered first, then you can begin that exploration for the tool, and then it really makes that commitment to the tool more lasting in that process. I’ve seen a lot of different types of, what we would say, assessment approaches. To me, none of them are, say, formal assessment approaches other than they’re based out of that set framework each and every time. And we have our own processes here in Fairfax County in Virginia, but we base them off of SETT.

Lori: Great. Thank you for that. That’s a new one for me. 

Jeff: Okay, sure. Yeah. 

Lori: Well, let’s talk about future. I mean, the future seems like it’s now, right? With all the AI and everything happening. But what are some possible future technology growth areas that will positively impact our classrooms?

Jeff: Yeah, you brought up the speech to text and I got that right, you know, this time again, instead of reversing it yet again. So we brought up that experience, right, with the Google document piece. And you don’t know what’s gonna hit you until it hits you. One thing that I like to go to, I feel like I’m very nerdy when this type of topic comes up. So my nerdiness is really flaring like in these moments. But I almost see the developments and technology developments that become accessibility developments almost happening in the world of video games first. It’s really kind of amazing, like the innovations that happen there for people to engage, and that’s really kind of the main thing, how they’re engaging with technology. As opposed to typing, a lot of video games don’t give you the time to type, right? So you need other access methods to engage with the technology and the dialogue that’s happening in that environment.

And I say right now that I’m really excited, and this really kind of really speaks more to students today with physical disabilities, more severe physical disabilities specifically, maybe some cognitive disabilities, but with eye gaze technology. And that is technology that’s tracking your eye movements so that it will engage and explore and assist you with reading and writing, not necessarily gaming, inside of a computing environment.

And so that I see is really kind of growing very, very rapidly now, as well as we mentioned, augmentative communication with speech generating devices. I think that’s becoming more inclusive. Fortunately, you know, for those student populations, I see more and more growth in companies that develop that type of technology, as opposed to really kind of developing a more intensive and expensive augmentative communication system to being tools that were easily accessed through a touch device, as you mentioned before, such as an iPad or any type of tablet. And that then becomes more recognizable to more people outside of that augmentative communication device user, because that’s an important part, too. So we may we may teach and use this with some of our students, but when we go to interact in an environment when people have not seen that type of communication before, that becomes a barrier.

So the more that those systems become more and more inclusive and more of a tier one approach inside of our multi -tiered systems of support, the better that is for kids or adults that use those types of tools. And then lastly, you mentioned AI as well. And I’m really excited for that. And I will say that in our district, we’re really kind of wrapping our heads around that, as that’s really growing unexpectedly very quickly for us at this time. Yeah. So how this is going to build processes for writing, because we all know what happens. And AI is far from perfect. And we just say, I’d like to have an essay on the French Revolution and what magically then will pop up. And with that, does it accurately convey what it’s supposed to convey inside of that documentation? Is it what we really kind of sought for as a task within the instruction, you know, and our teaching and in our learning? So I think that we’re figuring that out right now, but I think it also proposes some potential, you know, rewards for students that really are dysgraphic and that have executive functioning issues and struggle with the organizational processes of writing. I think there can be a lot of benefit with those students. And that’s exciting as we continue to figure that out and learn more about it.

Lori: Yeah, I keep exploring this AI. A recent one that’s come up for me is Ella Kids. And it’s great because it creates social stories. And you can kind of design the character yourself based off this, based off your student. And they’ll do like a cartoon version or a clay version or whatever version, but create a whole social story for you. 

Jeff: Yes. 

Lori: Within seconds, it used to take me hours, you know, and then get the clip art and put it in and everything. So that’s been really great. Just on my end as a teacher. But also I wanted to just go back to your discussion about using the AC device in public. An example, my son loves Starbucks and so he’s learned how to order a specific drink on his iPad.

Jeff: Excellent. 

Lori: And so we practice, I mean, it took a really long time, but we practice and he’s got it. But when we took it into Starbucks, they couldn’t hear it, they didn’t know how to read it. You know, it was just all that kind of like wonky kind of, oh, this is awkward. But as we kept going in there, of course, they were more and more accustomed to it. But I do think that’s kind of the future, is trying to get society to be more adapt, I don’t know what the word is.

Jeff: Aware, just awareness, 

Lori: building that awareness, sure. Yeah, and interacting with the kiddos and with their devices is so important, so.

Jeff: Yeah, there’s multiple means of communication, and I think that’s a learning experience for everyone. And again, I do see, I see at least in my kind of corner of the world, less segregation between those student populations. And that is just a great approach for universal design as we continue to do that in many facets in our educational environments.

Lori: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, Jeff, I think that’s all we have time for today. Thank you so much for coming and sharing your wisdom with us.

Jeff: I am happy to talk about this stuff anytime. It’s very exciting for me. It’s been my life’s work and my life’s passion. Thank you for inviting me, and if you ever want to talk more, I’m always happy to do so. Awesome.

Lori: Thanks a lot.

Jeff: All right. 

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Thank you for joining us for today’s show. For more information, including how to subscribe and show notes, please head to our website. That’s seniainternational.org/podcasts. Until next time, cheers.